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Rgold’s recommendation not to fall.
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Jul 6, 2004, 2:00 AM
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Rgold’s recommendation not to fall.
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Hi Gang

I’ve been enjoying reading alpnclmbr1’s "rgold collection." (Great reading if you haven't gotten to it: see sticky on top of the General board.) The following quote really got me thinking.

In reply to:


If you are falling on climbs less than 5.10, you're going about it all wrong. Generations of climbers have learned to work their way up through 5.9 without taking leader falls, primarily because the gear made falling a more serious proposition. But better gear won't make you a better climber, and it won't help you develop the discipline needed to climb with relative safety near your limit. So slow down and learn the fine art of failure, so that when tomorrow comes, you'll still be around for another try.

The leader not falling was part and parcel of the way I learned to climb in the early 70’s. Falling on toprope was fine, but not while leading. So it’s been a little hard to get my head around the modern concept, coming back to climbing after a 22 year break, that falling was okay – even “part of the growing process.” I had just about accepted the “new reality,” and planned on taking some practice trad falls, when I read Goldstone’s quote above.

I want to believe that there is real merit in what Goldstone is implying: that discipline (i.e.: the ability to keep all the balls in the air without dropping any) can only be gained by learning to lead at your limit without falling. I say this because I trust that whether you’re just learning to lead trad on 5.2’s or leading 5.12 trad that the mental skillset remains constant. How can you learn those skills without learning how to keep your s**t together and not fall? Is not falling a skill? And if so, what is it?

Have bolts on sport climbs and the ease of placing cams on trad changed everything. Or is there still validity in this traditonal approach? I say this as someone who climbs 5.9/10 in the gym, but who is just releaning how to lead using modern methods at the 5.5 trad level. (I remember saying to myself as I lead “Sixish” at the Gunks last weekend, how much more serious the lead would be without cams or tricams.)

Thank you, Richard, for your food for thought.

Best, Kim


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Jul 6, 2004, 2:09 AM
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Re: Rgold’s recommendation not to fall. [In reply to]
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I used to feel guilty about not falling, that is until I read somewhere a little piece about your own personal ethics. Why should anyone climb any other way than what their own personal ethics dictates. For instance I hate to fall, I have downclimbed through the crux of a 5.11 climb because I was not comfortable with the next move.

I will grab a draw at my waist rather than falling. Mind you I have taken a 30 metre whipper when I got off route once. Pretty much the only time I will fall is when I least expect it, I will do everything in my power to prevent a fall. If I become absolutely spanked and the forearms a burning sooo much that I think they will explode then I amy spooge off the holds and drop whatever distance.

Even on huge big fat ringbolts on a roof every metre I will avoid falling on any sort of slack rope.


crshbrn84


Jul 6, 2004, 2:17 AM
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very well said, i think alot of people should take this to heart, and you could say that the reason why alot of people boulder is so they can gain that tecnique that u talked about, well good luck climbing.
-kyle


bighead


Jul 6, 2004, 2:44 AM
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Re: Rgold’s recommendation not to fall. [In reply to]
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First off I have to say that your post is one of the best I've read in a while. Whether someone agrees with you or not, it is very well written and thought out. I personally disagree with the notion that the leader doesn't fall. I personally feel a better way to look at it is that a good leader knows when it is safe to fall. Whether or not it is safe to fall on a route is something I determine before I begin any climb or pitch. A good leader should have the ability to assess a climb and determine if the terrain and protection are such that a fall would be safe or dangerous and then use this information in determining how they are going to approach the climb. When I first started climbing I was like most people and hated falling. As I have progressed I have reached a point where if I feel a fall presents little risk and is generally safe (no fall is ever without some inherent risk) then I don't mind pushing myself and seeing what happens. One thing I never do is intentionally take a fall. Even if I feel like there is no way I'm going to hit the next move I still put everything into the attempt and more often then not I suprise myself and do it. Well this is just my two cents so take it for what it's worth.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 6, 2004, 2:53 AM
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Re: Rgold’s recommendation not to fall. [In reply to]
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In reply to:


If you are falling on climbs less than 5.10, you're going about it all wrong. Generations of climbers have learned to work their way up through 5.9 without taking leader falls, primarily because the gear made falling a more serious proposition. But better gear won't make you a better climber, and it won't help you develop the discipline needed to climb with relative safety near your limit. So slow down and learn the fine art of failure, so that when tomorrow comes, you'll still be around for another try.
Another one of the reasons for a rule like this is that in many places the 5.10's are the first routes that are suited for safe falls on good and plentiful gear at the hard part.

One possible counter to this ideal would be if you’re unreasonably afraid of falling. In this case, learning that the rope will catch you in a safe manner, under ideal conditions can be helpful. I.E. Don’t fall by choice as opposed to being unreasonably afraid of it.

Being afraid of falling is a double edged sword. In one way it can keep you safer, in another it can prevent you from exploring your limits.

For the most part I don’t fall on trad. I reserve that for sport climbing, and sometimes I “sport climb” on gear.

For a full on beginner: don’t fall until you are confident of being able to tell the difference between a place where it is alright to fall and a place where it is not alright to fall.

Bottom line: I don’t buy the line “if you’re not falling, you’re not trying, and your not going to get any better.”


tradmanclimbs


Jul 6, 2004, 3:16 AM
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Re: Rgold’s recommendation not to fall. [In reply to]
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On hard well protected climbing if you don't push yourself to failure you probobly wont get up the thing. Lynnie proved you guys wrong a bazilion years ago by useing hangdogging to work the moves on Vandals. Certainly it is vital to know how to climb on the edge without falling for those climbs that falling is unsafe and not an option but you are dreaming if you think that the current level of dificulty that the worlds top climbers operate would ever have been achived with a leader never falls attitude/ethic.


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Jul 6, 2004, 3:24 AM
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Re: Rgold’s recommendation not to fall. [In reply to]
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I`m very happy to allow anyone else to have their own ethic but I`m sticking with mine. I still fall when I push myself but I like to think that I push myself to not fall rather than just take the fall because it`s all too hard.


curt


Jul 6, 2004, 4:17 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:


If you are falling on climbs less than 5.10, you're going about it all wrong. Generations of climbers have learned to work their way up through 5.9 without taking leader falls, primarily because the gear made falling a more serious proposition. But better gear won't make you a better climber, and it won't help you develop the discipline needed to climb with relative safety near your limit. So slow down and learn the fine art of failure, so that when tomorrow comes, you'll still be around for another try.
Another one of the reasons for a rule like this is that in many places the 5.10's are the first routes that are suited for safe falls on good and plentiful gear at the hard part.

One possible counter to this ideal would be if you’re unreasonably afraid of falling. In this case, learning that the rope will catch you in a safe manner, under ideal conditions can be helpful. I.E. Don’t fall by choice as opposed to being unreasonably afraid of it.

Being afraid of falling is a double edged sword. In one way it can keep you safer, in another it can prevent you from exploring your limits.

For the most part I don’t fall on trad. I reserve that for sport climbing, and sometimes I “sport climb” on gear.

For a full on beginner: don’t fall until you are confident of being able to tell the difference between a place where it is alright to fall and a place where it is not alright to fall.

Bottom line: I don’t buy the line “if you’re not falling, you’re not trying, and your not going to get any better.”

I don't buy this either. Falling merely teaches you how to fail by falling. Climbing and succeeding, without falling, will teach you how to succeed at climbing.

Curt


dirtineye


Jul 6, 2004, 4:18 AM
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Re: Rgold?s recommendation not to fall. [In reply to]
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You know Rgold is great and has a LOT to offer, but he's not always right.

That not falling thing is a personal preference.

Another great climber who also has a lot to offer and also is not always right would be Arno, the HIGH PRIEST of falling preparation.



I have a strong feeling that these climbers, who are placed on a pedestal by the climbing public, would advise us all to think for ourselves a little more, and blindly quote them a little less, and rather use what they say or write as a guide to further thought and investigation.


pico23


Jul 6, 2004, 4:46 AM
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(the following is my opinion and not a climbing edict I feel must be followed by the entire climbing community. please formulate your own opinion and have fun how ever you want)

i learned how to ice climb first so falling (even on top rope) is generally a bad thing. then I got into rock and my partner, though not much older than myself, really believed in the you fall you fail philosophy (he also believed in the less is more philosophy/knowledge is the lightest thing you can carry phiososphy). granted it's been argued this philosophy is as dead as the dinosaurs and has no purpose in modern "sport trad" it has become a personal ethic of mine as well.

I've never been impressed with people who believe falling leads to success, however, that is purely my perogative. Like what has been posted above by Curt and few others, I believe falling teachers to fail by falling. One of my personal enjoyments of climbing is the onsight lead. Very satisfying to work out a series of problems and sucessfully complete a climb from the ground up. To me there is no difference between packing it in at the crux by down climbing, being lowered, or by taking a fall. Either way you couldn't do the climb and this whole but you tried it thing is bullshinto. Either you can do it or you can't. To me climbing is about keeping your cool, working through problems, and most of all being in control of the situation. When you fall you are no longer in control of the situation. And thats really the bottom line.


dirtineye


Jul 6, 2004, 5:01 AM
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Re: Rgold?s recommendation not to fall. [In reply to]
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If you think you are not in control of a fall, then you need to PRACTICE!!!!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha!

So, is falling failing for boulderers too? cause if so, it seems like most boulderers are doing an awful lot of failing, but they sure seem to be havinig a lot of fun diong it.


pico23


Jul 6, 2004, 5:20 AM
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In reply to:
If you think you are not in control of a fall, then you need to PRACTICE!!!!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha!

So, is falling failing for boulderers too? cause if so, it seems like most boulderers are doing an awful lot of failing, but they sure seem to be havinig a lot of fun diong it.

I believe the post was about climbing and not bouldering. Quite honestly they are two separate sports, kind of like swimming and water polo, or road cycling and mountain biking. The truth is I couldn't care less about bouldering regardless.

The world is a much better place now that I couldn't care less what other people do as long as it doesn't directly affect me.


dirtineye


Jul 6, 2004, 5:29 AM
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I can't separate bouldering and trad. They just go hand in hand. And especially when you throw in high balling and free soloing, any distinction between bouldering and climbing is lost.


curt


Jul 6, 2004, 5:35 AM
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In reply to:
I can't separate bouldering and trad. They just go hand in hand. And especially when you throw in high balling and free soloing, any distinction between bouldering and climbing is lost.

Well, as far as the topic of this thread goes, I don't differentiate much between trad and bouldering either. I don't much like to fall when bouldering or roped climbing. Isn't it better to succeed than to fail--in any case?

Curt


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Jul 6, 2004, 5:41 AM
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I put up an FFA trad route on sandstone a couple of years ago. It was a relativly easy route with a quite difficult boulder problem at two thirds height. Just under the crux roof is a rectalotomy tree so falling is not an option here so I`ve got a nice big fat SS glue in ring bolt right there. I say trad cos there is natural protection on the rest of the climb except for right at the start which is also protected with a fatty ring bolt. Don`t want to fall off that ledge whilst belaying the leader.

Anyway I can remember grunting up the FFA through the boulder problem and so as I`m seconding a couple of weekends ago I`m stumped at the crux and not wishing to fall I wailed up to the leader "I climbed this".

So trad can be accompanied with bouldering but I still won`t compromise my ethic of not wishing to fall. As stated this is my ethic and everyone else in this world is quite welcome to climb by way of their own ethics. To thine own self be true as the saying goes.


dirtineye


Jul 6, 2004, 6:07 AM
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Who said you have to wish to fall?

OF course it is beter to suck seeds than fail, but falling is only failing if you injure yourself or can't finish the climb. Finishing a climb after a fall is a bit harder than onsighting, if not as pretty.

If you never fall, you are not risking much, ans how much of an adventure is that?

Adventure climbing (not exactly trad) means facing the unknown, so you had better be prepared for a fall. Of course, aiding to avoid falling and ascent by any means necessary will also work, if you just can;t bear to fall.

Is aiding to avoid a fall failing too?


alpnclmbr1


Jul 6, 2004, 6:09 AM
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If you fall during an ascent, then you didn't "finish the climb," which was kind of the point in the first place.


jason1


Jul 6, 2004, 12:14 PM
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best not to over generalize... falling is acceptable withing certain guidlines.


timstich


Jul 6, 2004, 12:23 PM
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In reply to:
I used to feel guilty about not falling, that is until I read somewhere a little piece about your own personal ethics. Why should anyone climb any other way than what their own personal ethics dictates. For instance I hate to fall, I have downclimbed through the crux of a 5.11 climb because I was not comfortable with the next move.

I will grab a draw at my waist rather than falling. Mind you I have taken a 30 metre whipper when I got off route once. Pretty much the only time I will fall is when I least expect it, I will do everything in my power to prevent a fall. If I become absolutely spanked and the forearms a burning sooo much that I think they will explode then I amy spooge off the holds and drop whatever distance.

Even on huge big fat ringbolts on a roof every metre I will avoid falling on any sort of slack rope.

Ah Phil. It appears you and I have the same climbing style. Not ethics, mind you!

Now that I have been leading trad climbs for a while, that do not fall style has oozed into my sport climbing and I am finding myself grabbing draws to avoid a potential fall injury. I have seen the financial hit even an insured accident can deliver, and hey, who wants an injury that keeps you from climbing? I still appoligize to my belayer when I do that anyway. Oh, the shame. Now that I have done some alpine climbs, you can bet I won't balk at doing whatever it takes not to fall.


tradmanclimbs


Jul 6, 2004, 12:40 PM
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You have to be able to make a distinction between the style of climbing you are doing at that moment. I climb Ice, I solo ice, (allmost the same thing) I also tradclimb a whole bunch and sport climb ocasionaly. I obviouslty have the no fall mentality going while soloing and iceclimbing. I will also grab gear before falling on most multi pitch tradclimbs (definatly not falling up on cannon) Sport climbing is a different game intierly and I have been known to huck dynos at out of reach holds takeing repeted falls until I stuck the dam thing. I have also worked single pitch trad climbs were the crux had a safe fall and was way harder than my comfort level so I work those kind of climbs with falls until I have the thing wired. Kind of interested to hear a response from RG on the Vandal thing.


saltamonte


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Re: Rgold’s recommendation not to fall. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
If you are falling on climbs less than 5.10, you're going about it all wrong.
In reply to:


notice he said climbs below a 5.10. Just think of how the system was developed in the first place 5.10 was thought to be the limit of human ability then came modern climbing shoes better ropes not to mention people with sheer determination to break those limits and we keep going up.(I recognize there are many people who could climb 5.11 or greater with old fashion equipment. progress has not been just a matter of better equipment ) I think he is saying that if you are constantly allowing yourself to fall as you climb 5.8s and 5.9s that you probably are not excercising the patience and thought processes that will allow you to become a really good climber.

Rgold doesn't claim it is bad practice to fall while trying to conquer a 5.12 he is saying that you will build good climbing habits and perspective if you try to avoid using falls untill 5.10 and above.

I think That is very sound advice.


tradmanclimbs


Jul 6, 2004, 2:16 PM
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Can i still fall on 5.9+ sandbag??? Pleeese 8^)


dirtineye


Jul 6, 2004, 2:29 PM
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If you fall during an ascent, then you didn't "finish the climb," which was kind of the point in the first place.

No, if yo ufall and climb back up and complete the route, then you did finish the climb.

Only if you fall off and don;t get back on do you not finish the climb.

I thought the point of climbing was climbing. Finishing a climb is not necessary to climb. The point is to have fun climbing.


madmax


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Generally, I find falling to be very liberating. There is nothing like taking a good fall to free you mind from all that internal chatter and help you focus. If you're not willing to fall, then how do you know and, more importantly, expand your limits? One of the most satisfying moments in climbing for me is when I'm above my gear and faced with making moves at my limit, where the possibility of falling is equal to the possibility of success. Sometimes doubt clouds the mind and you fall, and sometimes all thoughts leave you mind and you stick the move. What it comes down to for me is that a willingness to fall is proportionate to my commitment level (basically the opposite of what some people have suggested by saying falling trains you to fail). There is a difference between simply not attempting to make a move and falling, and commiting to a move and falling. Generally, the more willing I am to fall, the more commited I am to a climb. Sounds kinda contradictory, but when I accept the possibility of falling (and don't dwell on it), I often pull through the move and don't fall. (All of this assumes the fall is clean and will not inherently result in serious injury.)


papounet


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The point of Rgold is somewhat similar, I believe, to the school of thought of pyramid: before you do a 5.10, you must have ticked an amount of 5.9, before doing 5.9, you must have ticked an amount of 5.8.
In Alpine climbing, I just came back from doing TD and AD routes. my guide's advice => go and do plenty of PD routes by myself to polish technique and confidence.
It is all about being solid at one level of skill, so solid in fact that you won't fall on easier ground, or you won't make a mistake because you are tired.

If you are looking at a 12-pitch route as I am (I have the topo next to me), you have to be certain that you won't be exhausted by sustained climbing at too high a level. In that light, the point of rgold is also valid: you must be solid.

Your "average" skill level is not the highest grade you climb after work, a much safer skill assesment is highest onsight that you can do on a bad day as well as on a good day (say 80%). You need to push yourself slightly beyond your confort zone to progress but not beyond your ability zone.

In my opinion, it is not because you have taken the gym-facilitated shortcut to high gymnastics abilities that you can climb outdoor, especially on gear.

I must admit to having a variable falling ethics:
in boulder, I hate it but accept it,
in gyms, I hate it, and suck it up (I could be persuaded even from time to time practice it wit my belayer)
on sport routes, I hate it and would downclimb/ pause / take /grab draw or launch depending on my form
on trad routes, I really do my utmost to avoid it.
on mixed routes, no way I will fall.

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