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joemor
May 6, 2002, 4:17 AM
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sounds wierd to me...
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tim
May 6, 2002, 4:32 AM
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Creatine phosphate is an intermediary metabolite that is used for extremely short duration anaerobic efforts, eg. explosive actions, quick powerful movements (Olympic-style weightlifting for example), and anything else that is over in less than 2 or 3 seconds. After that, glycogen starts to kick in, and if you go aerobic, glucose.
The deal with creatine loading is that, while it makes you retain water (duh, phosphates tend to carry waters of hydration), it also accumulates to a degree in your muscles. When you perform a high-intensity quick effort, you may see an increase in the strength of this effort of up to 20%. That is a colossal amount. However, for most styles of climbing (excluding bouldering), the water retention will cancel out the benefits of the increased strength, since it's your own bodyweight that you're pulling.
Creatine: Harmful? Not according to any of the studies that have been done. Expensive and useless for most climbers? Well, yeah...
nb. I am no longer involved in biochemistry or nutrition in any substantial way, so if you want real medical or nutritional advice, you're going to have to pay a professional. That said, I did recieve my undergraduate degree in biochemistry, and as an athlete I paid a lot of attention to what the refereed journals published on the subject. YMMV.
[ This Message was edited by: jabbeaux on 2002-05-05 21:33 ]
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ryanguy
May 6, 2002, 4:37 AM
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Retaining water adds weight which climbers done need excess of, if thats what Creatine does. Creatine is used in muscles to transfer energy when aerobic metabolism can't keep up, like in high intensity exercises. However, energy stored with creatine is minimal and is only good for ashort burst of energy such as a rep or two in lifting weights. Your body produces it anyway. I've never taken it but in my mind it is a waste of money. Exercising to boost metabolism and increase your muscles capacity for aerobic metabolism will do as much in the long run.
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psych
May 6, 2002, 5:03 AM
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When I was weight lifting a lot I took creatine (wasn't all THAT expensive, you get a good amount for $25(CAN$)). Now, I'm not a biochemist so I won't touch anything above my head on that front but here's what I found.
After a week or two, I noticed a big gain in muscle mass, which was one thing I was going for, and because of the type of training I did I got the right kind of muscle (defined, not bulk) for me. After training for a month or so with creatine each day, I noticed big gains in how much weight I could do for every type of excercise. I had NO wierd side effects (except for this third arm, but I've found it very handy for climbing, pun intended!). Bottom line: it made me look bigger, and gave significant gains in strength.
Only thing I'm not sure about was if that extra muscle would stay once I stopped. As it worked out, I stopped weight training at the same time I stopped using creatine so I lost some of those extra muscles. Whether that was purely from stopping the creatine intake, or stopping training, or both I don't know.
In theory, I guess if you get a strength gain from it, then you've "upped your bar" so to speak, lifting heavier weights and thus buiding more muscle on top of it naturally. So I think it's a pretty cool thing over all...also gives you a better self image, or it did me, which helped in other areas.
But for climbing, I'm not sure it's something that would have a lot of effect. You do have to be on a regular training program, and I think that a) most people don't climb enough to fit that bill, and b) climbing isn't weight training, it's not pure muscle that's key to it...
Mike...
--- .02c
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traddad
May 6, 2002, 2:09 PM
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Personal anecdote only:
I started taking creatine about three weeks ago and I have noticed significant gains in strength, both in weight lifting and in power oriented bouldering.
I am now in a strength phase of training (core mainly) so I am almost exclusively lifting and power bouldering. I figure that if it allows me to work out effectively nearer my max, I will gain strength (which I have little of right now). I find that the effects last longer than the 2-3 seconds that someone mentioned in an earlier post, but definately not more than, say eight GOOD reps. However, if I rest ENOUGH (read 2-3 minutes) between sets (or routes), the strength returns. I'll keep you posted on how things shape up in the long run.
Oh, yeah....I DID gain about 3 or so pounds. Chump change.
Traddad
[ This Message was edited by: traddad on 2002-05-06 08:12 ]
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lilred
May 6, 2002, 2:56 PM
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I've used creatine for about 6 weeks, and now I'm cycling off of it...I've noticed great gains in strength in my climbing, (I almost always boulder)and I've stopped weight lifting, as I was getting a bit beefy and didn't want bulk to get in the way of climbing...I now am doing Pilates to strengthen my core muscles (the important ones for climbing)and that alone has boosted my strength and endurance... Weight lifting just wasn't cutting it... If you want some inexpensive quality Creatine, hit up your local grocery store and check out EAS's creatine...good stuff, low price...just make sure you cycle it (every 6-8 weeks) so your body doesn't quit producing it's own...If you want some really kick-a*s creatine (more expensive) go to GNC and check out Riboforce, it has a very effictive delivery system.
Hope that helps,
-M
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psych
May 6, 2002, 3:01 PM
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EAS was the stuff I was using, it had the desired effect and yeah, cheap as hell! :-)
What are (is?) Pilates, if you don't mind me asking?
Mike...
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lilred
May 6, 2002, 4:48 PM
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Pilates was developed by Joseph Pilates as a means of strengthening the core muscles and increasing flexibility...it is quickly becoming one of the "fad" programs to follow...There is tons of info online, or do what I did...go to a book store and get a beginers book and learn on your own! I've tried finding classes, but they are REALLY expensive, so I just do them on my own, at home. Pilates is sort of a mix between resistance training and yoga. Good stuff!
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psych
May 7, 2002, 1:09 AM
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Hmm, sounds interesting! I'll have to check it out...I mean, I'd hate to be untrendy!
Mike...
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cruzinsouthoc
May 7, 2002, 1:35 AM
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I've been using Creatine for years and also tried many other supplements over that time. Creatine is the only thing (besides Protein) I'll really stand behind and endorse to my friends. It does help you build mass and gain strength, but the mass will decrease if you go off of it. Imagine your muscles like a sponge, Creatine makes your muscle retain more water, without it, you muscles can't "sponge" as much water..you get deflated in a sense. The strength/size gains are noticeable. Many believe it gets you dehydrated though..so many PT's/Nutritionists suggest drinking lots of water while on it. I think that if there were any serious side effects, I'd have seen them by now. Many, actually most, pro sports teams buy the stuff in bulk for their players (NFL, NBA and MBL). If their professional trainers trust it...then I wouldn't worry too much. But don't be dumb...too much of anything can cause harm.
While on the stuff, I entered an IPF sanctioned regional competition and won the bench press contest. At 5'-6" 142 lbs I benched 265 lbs. Later that summer, I reached my current P.B. of 275 lbs. Use it WISELY to enhance your training and you'll be happy with it. The only people I've ever been told shouldn't use it are marathon type people...but if you ever need explosive power out of your muscles. Give it a shot.
By the way..it's really cheap. You shouldn't be paying more than $30-$40 for 1000grams. You're only supposed to use 5gr a day after your first week (aka the loading phase) where you take about 20gr/day.
[ This Message was edited by: cruzinsouthoc on 2002-05-06 18:43 ]
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daggerx
May 7, 2002, 1:43 AM
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I took it for a wile last summer but did not see any results. I was a climbing bum at the peroid I was taking it. It probley would have worked better but I did not really take it the way you should have. No I lift much much much more then i used to and are planning on trying it once again. soon
DaggerX
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rippdclimber
May 7, 2002, 1:50 AM
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Most of the clinical trials that I have seen say that creatine is effective. There has not been any evidence of harm done by creatine, but there has not been alot of research done on it. There are two possibilities for problems that might devolop from creatine use. The first is in the water retention, creatine does pool more water into your muscles and so there is less water in your body. When I use creatine I drink as much water as possible, which is a good idea any way, but becomes very important when using creatine. The other problem that I have seen proposed is that long term creatine use could limit the bodies ability to produce its own creatine. I load creatine for one week at a time about once a month. I notice significant strength gains durring that time which ussually levels off slightly in the following weeks. By using creatine for only a week at a time I have noticed long term strength gains, I also have advoided the weight gain caused by the excess water, which has impacted my climbing. I am also advoiding the possiblity of limiting my bodies production of creatine.
I'm not really a doctor either though. This is just what I have found to work best for me.
Josh
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