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zozo
Aug 5, 2004, 10:15 PM
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I searched on this and came up with nothing. Is there, and what is the best way to back up a belay?
An autoblocker on the feed side just didnt seem right to me.
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saskclimber
Aug 5, 2004, 10:22 PM
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that's why the belay loop and belay biner are so beefy...so there shouldn't be a need to back it up. It'd be kinda hard to anyways, because when you are feeding rope out to the leader, the method used to back it up would likely arrest the feed too. Maybe if you could set up a prussik that didn't lock up under your feed speed, but did during a fall if the original belay method failed. I wouldn't really worry about backing it up though. As long as you check all the gear that's involved, and you are a competent belayer, you should be good.
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tenn_dawg
Aug 5, 2004, 10:22 PM
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You can coil your rope sloppily and stand in it while belaying. Then hopefully if your belay fails, a coil will tangle on your legs and stop your partner from decking.
Really, if your belay fails it's going to take a miracle to remedy the situation. There is no easy or effective way to back up a belay, therefore, belaying requires increased competency and attention on the part of the belayer.
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tenn_dawg
Aug 5, 2004, 10:24 PM
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In reply to: that's why the belay loop and belay biner are so beefy...so there shouldn't be a need to back it up. It'd be kinda hard to anyways, because when you are feeding rope out to the leader, the method used to back it up would likely arrest the feed too. Maybe if you could set up a prussik that didn't lock up under your feed speed, but did during a fall if the original belay method failed.
Interesting thought, but the prussik would melt and fail if you used it to catch a lead fall in this method.
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saskclimber
Aug 5, 2004, 10:25 PM
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Depends on what you use to make the prussik out of. A prussik doesn't melt if it catches a rappel fall does it?
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zozo
Aug 5, 2004, 10:26 PM
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In reply to: Maybe if you could set up a prussik that didn't lock up under your feed speed, but did during a fall if the original belay method failed. I wouldn't really worry about backing it up though. As long as you check all the gear that's involved, and you are a competent belayer, you should be good.
My thinking is what happens if the belayer becomes unconcious for some reason. Im reading alot on how to rescue a leader or second but there is no mention about what happens if the belayer has problems.
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drmsetplr
Aug 5, 2004, 10:26 PM
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What would fail? Harness or ATC?
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saskclimber
Aug 5, 2004, 10:29 PM
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If the belayer has problems? You can get struck by lightning, or attacked by a bear too...I guess all you could really do is if you knew that a problem was coming, say you were epileptic and started smelling burnt toast, would be to hold your brake end in the locking position, thread the rope through your locker, and then tie it up to the rope going to the leader. Make sure that you clipped the locker into an anchor too though. I doubt you would have enough time to do all this though...just make sure you take your meds I guess :P, as for the failing part in the previous post, it is more likely that the harness would fail vs. the ATC, but take a close look at how your belay loop is constructed. it's usually wrapped around 3 or 4 times, and bar tacked tighter than fort knox. That's why it is important to do regualr gear inspections before you climb though.
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vegastradguy
Aug 5, 2004, 10:32 PM
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my backup if my belayer passes out is him tied to anchor and the rope tied to him. :)
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saskclimber
Aug 5, 2004, 10:34 PM
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In reply to: my backup if my belayer passes out is him tied to anchor and the rope tied to him. :)
I know (think) you're being sarcastic with that, but yeah, if that was the case, wouldnt the impact of you falling as far as the rope allowed shock load pretty much everything in the system?
I guess the safest way would be to anchor the belayer, and use a gri gri to belay with. Just like they do when teaching most beginners in gyms
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tedc
Aug 5, 2004, 10:34 PM
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1) Gri Gri
2) Second belayer. This is done while teaching belaying fairly often.
3) Tie a knot every 10' in the rope which will not pull through your device. (Remember to untie the knots) This happens to be a decent method of rope management on multipitch as well. Belayer pulls up rope for second and ties overhands every X feet. Clips over hand to a draw on anchor Repeat. Repeat. When second goes out on lead the belay is "backed up" by the knots. Just have to pay lots of attention and get the knots untied in time. (WITHOUT LETTING GO OF THE BELAY).
You might be best served to just be a really careful belayer. And wear a helmet.
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drmsetplr
Aug 5, 2004, 10:50 PM
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I know it is improbable, but I have wondered on more than one occaision just what it would be like to watch the metal of your ATC come prying apart. Or maybe the biner that your using fail. Don't immediately start assuming things about me. Just know that I'm the kind of person who drives down the road waiting for the guy in the other lane to swerve and hit me head on. Truly disturbing thoughts. Maybe that is why I sleep so well at night. I get all the nightmares out in the day time. :D
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vegastradguy
Aug 5, 2004, 10:53 PM
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actually, i wasnt being sarcastic. thats truth for me, anyway.
i also dont use grigri's except when TR'ing or aid climbing.
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saskclimber
Aug 5, 2004, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: I know it is improbable, but I have wondered on more than one occaision just what it would be like to watch the metal of your ATC come prying apart. Or maybe the biner that your using fail. Don't immediately start assuming things about me. Just know that I'm the kind of person who drives down the road waiting for the guy in the other lane to swerve and hit me head on. Truly disturbing thoughts. Maybe that is why I sleep so well at night. I get all the nightmares out in the day time. :D
I think we've all had that. Sometime I freak out that the Anchors at the top will pop in a gym. It's something that you gotta get used to, but don't get complacent with. I'm pretty sure that ATC's are machined out of a solid piece of metal, so there shouldnt be a problem with them, and Belay biners are really beefy, so even with the gate open, they would still likely hold a fall. This is why you must ALWAYS check your gear out before you but it on.
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nextascent
Aug 5, 2004, 11:25 PM
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Dave....
Come with me to that self rescue course! :lol:
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reno
Aug 5, 2004, 11:35 PM
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- Belayer tied in to rope.
- Belayer anchored to ground (tree, gear, etc.)
- Knot tied in rope every 10 feet or so... overhand knot, as it is easy to untie one-handed, yet bulky enough that it won't feed through the belay device.
- As leader climbs, belayer (with the non-braking hand) unties each knot as it approaches the belay device.
- If belayer becomes unconscious (insert reason here... lightning, rockfall, attacked by wild killer chipmunk with rabies, etc.) and leader falls, leader will only fall to distance of next knot. Then knot will stop fall, belayer will get pulled up until his anchor stops him.
- Then the fun begins: "How the heck do I self-rescue with an unresponsive belayer and a limited amount of rope?"
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wormly81
Aug 5, 2004, 11:43 PM
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I am having trouble understanding the reasons why you would need to back up your belay.
Take the knot tying example. So now instead of focusing on the climber you are belaying and proper belay technique, you are now fumbling around tying and untying knots? It seems to me that the KISS principle is very much true for a good belay. Focus on your climber, your belay IS the backup.
What other situations would you need to back up a belay??...... Interesting...
...Beginners! They dont know how to belay so giving them another knot or two to work with will help them pick up proper technique that much quicker?!?!?
...Are you constantly knocking your belayer unconcious when you trundle rocks on him/her? If so then you better back up your belay! [if this is the case you deserve to rap off your favorite alien to save them]
I think that this discussion of backing up a belay is wasting time that could be spent discussing proper belay techniques. In my short time climbing it seems that most people would spend hours talking about improving their climbing techniques but show no interest in a coversation about the intricacies of a great belay.
Jeff
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zozo
Aug 5, 2004, 11:48 PM
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In reply to: - Then the fun begins: "How the heck do I self-rescue with an unresponsive belayer and a limited amount of rope?"
Hey Reno!
That was my next question! :shock:
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zozo
Aug 5, 2004, 11:53 PM
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In reply to: I am having trouble understanding the reasons why you would need to back up your belay.
Your belaying your leader on pitch 3 of 5. A rock hits you on the head and kills you ( despite you wearing your helmet ).
Your diabetic and dont know it. What a great time to go limp for the first time!
Like others have suggested, either something goes wrong with your harness or device or biner.
Those are three scenarios right off the top of my head. Yeah these are statistically probably insignifiigant, but if there is a reasonable way to do it on some serious undertaking it might be good to know.
So far the knots idea sounds the best.
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fadeux
Aug 6, 2004, 12:00 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: - Then the fun begins: "How the heck do I self-rescue with an unresponsive belayer and a limited amount of rope?" Hey Reno! That was my next question! :shock:
my guess would be that you are tied into a rope coming down from an anchor and there is a rope going up to that anchor from unconsious belayer. Hmm... Here goes. (From ourdoor newbs perspective)
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Upclimb to anchor if possible. (Ascend rope maybe?)
Clip self to anchor
Rig something in the rope so its tied to you or the anchor, just to insure you won't drop it.
Untie from system
Double fig 8 the end of the rope and clip it to anchor, the rope should now have slack in it.
Fashion a rappel down.
----------------
Thats my guess, ok let me have it.
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wormly81
Aug 6, 2004, 12:13 AM
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In reply to: Your belaying your leader on pitch 3 of 5. A rock hits you on the head and kills you ( despite you wearing your helmet ).
The leader has the ability to place gear to rappel off. I dont see how fixing the rope at the bottom would put you in any better situation.
In reply to: Your diabetic and dont know it. What a great time to go limp for the first time!
Thats a real bummer but I don't see things going down like that. Hopefully I get some warning signs that my partner is about to check out on me.
In reply to: Like others have suggested, either something goes wrong with your harness or device or biner.
I see something going wrong because you were trying to back up a belay instead of just belaying properly in the first place. Mayve you create a situation in which you need that backup.
Thats just whats going through my head. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.
Jeff
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fletussanguine
Aug 6, 2004, 12:22 AM
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You're looking at it from the point of it's stupid to plan the redundancy, and based on you seeing what's coming up, wormly. The point of the whole topic is back-up, in the case that you DON'T see it coming. Which is how you should always plan things...for the worst possible scenario. Because if you don't, one day maybe the person you're climbing with will have a diabetic attack, (as unlikely as it seems), and you might be caught screwing the pooch because you didn't have any redundant saves. I don't think you're wrong, really...I just think you're not looking at everything in the right sense.
Michael
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curt
Aug 6, 2004, 12:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am having trouble understanding the reasons why you would need to back up your belay. Your belaying your leader on pitch 3 of 5. A rock hits you on the head and kills you ( despite you wearing your helmet ). Your diabetic and dont know it. What a great time to go limp for the first time! Like others have suggested, either something goes wrong with your harness or device or biner. Those are three scenarios right off the top of my head. Yeah these are statistically probably insignifiigant........
I spend very little time worrying about things that are statistically insignificant.
Curt
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jt512
Aug 6, 2004, 12:35 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am having trouble understanding the reasons why you would need to back up your belay. Your belaying your leader on pitch 3 of 5. A rock hits you on the head and kills you ( despite you wearing your helmet ). Your diabetic and dont know it. What a great time to go limp for the first time! Like others have suggested, either something goes wrong with your harness or device or biner. Those are three scenarios right off the top of my head. Yeah these are statistically probably insignifiigant...
I don't know. The risk of undiagnosed diabetes has really got me thinking.
-Jay
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summit
Aug 6, 2004, 12:41 AM
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I agree the knot idea sounds good but it seems to me it might take too much of your attention off the person your belaying. Especially if someone did an overhand too tight :P .
-Eric
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