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bbmass
Aug 10, 2004, 2:03 PM
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I took my brother in-law climbing and at the end of the day I thought it would be fun to take him on a trad climb. He seemed to have the TR belaying down and the route was only a 5.4. I guess my focus wasn't there and I fell and at that moment he wasn't looking at me and the rope ran through his hands. I was very lucky to only be 15' up and I think I just broke my foot, getting an x-ray this afternoon. Also thinking about getting a grigri. The fall was a very enlightening experience with regards to how much force a belay has to take, he did sort of catch me at the end which kept my head off the ground. The more I think of it making my second use a grigri seems like a great idea. What do you think? I realize the grigri isn't a replacement for proper belaying, but it sounds like a great insurance policy.
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dgkula
Aug 10, 2004, 2:19 PM
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Definitely consider a GriGri whenever teaching a friend to belay. Keep in mind that even a GriGri isn't idiot-proof though. Sorry to hear about your fall. Hope that you heal quickly.
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overlord
Aug 10, 2004, 2:33 PM
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ddint you tell him not to leave you from sight???? and dont teach belaying with a grigri. it makes a lazy belayer (itll catch, so why should i pay attention). its better to teach with an ATC and have somebody who knows what hes doing nearby in case something goes wrong (so he can help with braking and remind the belayer to pay attention).
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robmcc
Aug 10, 2004, 2:41 PM
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Careful consideration should be given to whether you had a lousy belayer or should have done a better job teaching. Personally, I'd rather be sure I had a good belayer with a standard device than an incompetent who might not kill me because he or she had a Gri-Gri. Rob
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outdoorsie
Aug 10, 2004, 2:49 PM
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Watching a second belay a leader with a grigri always made me nervous. I'm sure there's several ways to do it, but most of my friends will take their hands off the break line and pin down the cam in order to feed rope. Ugh, that just looks like very dangerous belay technique. Also, in the case of a leader fall, just letting the grigri take over does not produce the dynamic belay that you would want on a trad lead. I think its just a bad idea.
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hangerlessbolt
Aug 10, 2004, 3:16 PM
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1. The most important safety feature of any climb is a compitent belay. No device out there can replace that. Your brother-in-law had no business being on the other end of your line. Your fall was a simple reminder. As you know, it could have been so much worse. I'm relieved, for your sake, that it wasn't. 2. Feeding out rope with a gri gri is not as simple as it seems. Chances are, you would have been in the middle of a move, he would have shortroped you, and pulled you off. Count your blessings amigo And thank you for reminding us to be careful who we intrust our lives to. -Rob
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b_fost
Aug 10, 2004, 3:19 PM
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I'm glad you're okay. (except for the foot...hope it heals quick...)
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crotch
Aug 10, 2004, 4:04 PM
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When I take out first-timers and teach them to lead belay, I climb as if I am free-soloing, because with a green belayer, I may well be. Climb safely.
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troutboy
Aug 10, 2004, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: I The more I think of it making my second use a grigri seems like a great idea. What do you think? I realize the grigri isn't a replacement for proper belaying, but it sounds like a great insurance policy. I think you should visit the Petzl website and review the proper uses for a Gri-Gri. Belaying a trad leader is not one of them. TS
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jefferson
Aug 10, 2004, 4:16 PM
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"Watching a second belay a leader with a grigri always made me nervous. I'm sure there's several ways to do it, but most of my friends will take their hands off the break line and pin down the cam in order to feed rope. Ugh, that just looks like very dangerous belay technique. Also, in the case of a leader fall, just letting the grigri take over does not produce the dynamic belay that you would want on a trad lead. I think its just a bad idea." There's no reason to not have two fingers wrapped around the rope when pinning the cam...during a fall the rope just gets pulled right into your brake hand. One can also produce a very dynamic belay using a gri-gri. I think it's a good point about not learning with one though...I wouldn't want anyone relying too heavily on the cam to be catching me. I hope you heal quickly!
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paulraphael
Aug 10, 2004, 4:19 PM
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How far were you above your last pro? I'm asking because it can be easy to hit the deck from 15 feet even with a competent belay if your pro isn't spaced just right. Since you said it was an easy climb for you and you weren't that focussed, I have to ask. That first 15 feet or so are alwayst the toughest to protect well.
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usmc_2tothetop
Aug 10, 2004, 4:48 PM
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I'm sorry but that is the worst reason to drop someone. He should have been payin attention. I mean I could belay someone on TR with my eyes closed just feeling the slack (not that I would) but that sh-t was trad He should be watching when your going to pull up to clip in when to take and give slack. I have learned that you can't always see what your partner is doing so I have them yell out "clipping" (to give slack) and "clipped" (to take) and then you gotta pay attention to when your climber gets past his pro to give slack again. It's like spotting on a boulder problem. You try to watch the body language of the climber and predict when or if he will fall but none the less to always be ready. If fact I think one of the scariest things is to spot your buddy on a highball boulder problem. Anyways man...maybe a grigri is a good idea. CLIMB SAFE.
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pbjosh
Aug 10, 2004, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: 2. Feeding out rope with a gri gri is not as simple as it seems. Chances are, you would have been in the middle of a move, he would have shortroped you, and pulled you off. Not to nitpick, but it's hard to be shortroped while on a toprope.
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ricardol
Aug 10, 2004, 5:46 PM
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sounds like you need a better belayer .. .. you dont need to be watching your climber to catch his fall (in fact in alot of climbs, the leader goes out of sight) .. .... having had said that though -- anytime i've gone climbing with a beginning belayer, i've used a grigri .. like you said .. a little added insurance .. -- ricardo
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epic_ed
Aug 11, 2004, 3:37 AM
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First time I ever went climbing was outdoors at JTree and my buddy, who had little more experience than me, insisted that I learn to use some weird device that would lock off automatically if he fell. He trained me properly, we picked an easy route (may have been 4th class), and he emphasized over and over again how important that it was to never take my break hand off the rope -- auto-locking device or not. After nearly 1/2 a day of learning proper climbing commands, and several top rope trial runs trusting me with using the gri gri, he finally cast off on lead. We made it, and I've never had a better teacher. It is to his credit that he took the time to train me how to not kill him. More importantly, he forever etched in my mind just how serious I should take all aspects of climbing safety. I'm sure he's at least in part responsible for me surviving my own self-taught learning curve those next two years I progressed from top roping to trad leading. Teaching someone to belay with a gri gri isn't a bad idea. But the job is far from over at that point. Most new climbers still don't understand just how vital the role of belayer is in the game of climbing, and it's my job to make sure that each new partner I pick to climb with knows what the fuk they're doing before I take the sharp end leading back to their belay device. Sorry to hear you got hurt, and hope the ankle heals quickly. Ed
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epic_ed
Aug 11, 2004, 3:37 AM
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epic_ed moved this thread from Trad Climbing to Injuries & Accidents.
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kman
Aug 11, 2004, 4:21 AM
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In reply to: he wasn't looking at me and the rope ran through his hands. I was very lucky to only be 15' up and I think I just broke my foot, getting an x-ray this afternoon. Also thinking about getting a grigri. The fall was a very enlightening experience with regards to how much force a belay has to take, He shouldn't need to be looking at you to catch a fall. The rope ran through his hands, which means he was not belaying you correctly. A gri gri is not a substitute for competence and proper training. The latter may have been lacking some what by the sounds of it. Live and learn. I hope you heal up nice and quick so you can get back out there. Get back on lead asap so you don't lose your lead head.
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enjoimx
Aug 11, 2004, 5:38 AM
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It sounds like the problem here was that the belayer was simply loosely holding the break end of the rope. You guys may be forgetting how fast a climber will hit the deck from 15 feet up. The belayer may hardly have a chance to catch the fall if hes only loosely holding the break. I think another lesson here, besides having a competant belayer, is that when you cant see your leader (or arent looking as is the case in point) you have your hand tightly clutched to the break, ,not just loosely holding it. Summary: loosely holding the break is one thing, CLUTCHING the break with some hand muscle is another, and the differencece is enough to stop a leader fall.
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kman
Aug 11, 2004, 6:56 AM
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In reply to: You guys may be forgetting how fast a climber will hit the deck from 15 feet up. The belayer may hardly have a chance to catch the fall if hes only loosely holding the break. I think another lesson here, besides having a competant belayer, is that when you cant see your leader (or arent looking as is the case in point) you have your hand tightly clutched to the break, ,not just loosely holding it. Summary: loosely holding the break is one thing, CLUTCHING the break with some hand muscle is another, and the differencece is enough to stop a leader fall. Get ready to get flamed. I'm not even gonna bother with this one. You're talking out of your as$.
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overlord
Aug 11, 2004, 7:11 AM
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he hould be able to catch the climber from 15ft. man, thats five meter, free fall time from that is about 1sec. if he did pay attention he coulve seen that the leader was about to fall (foot slipping, anything) so he would even have some extra time to react. falls really rarely occur out of the blue, in most cases you get some prewarning, but only IF you pay attention.
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rendog
Aug 13, 2004, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: You guys may be forgetting how fast a climber will hit the deck from 15 feet up. The belayer may hardly have a chance to catch the fall if hes only loosely holding the break. Summary: loosely holding the break is one thing, CLUTCHING the break with some hand muscle is another, and the differencece is enough to stop a leader fall. You have GOT TO BE FUKIN KIDDING ME!!!!! remind me never to climb with you . I can't even begin to think of how much is wrong with that top statement JESUS!!! If you aren't able to catch a climber within 15 feet on a TOPROPE!!!! then you my friend have absolutely NO business being at the crag with a rope in your hands, whether you are "loosly holding" the brake line or not. I do agree with having a firm grip on the brake line, not so much having a "death grip", but just tight enough that you're not pumping out yourself while belaying. a person's reaction time (unless they are so drunk that they can barely speak) will give you enough time (if they are paying attention) to catch a top rope fall within a couple of feet. EHll even when I was first starting out I wasn't paying attention to a top roped climber, he pitched off on me just at the point in time that I figured the climb was "in the bag" so i reached down to get a drink of water when he came off. I had to nurse some serious rope burn for about a week, but I had stopped him within about 2 feet from where he came off at. Furthermore it taught me a valuable lesson about belaying: NEVER take your hands off the rope for anything and if you don't know how to do it, then get someone who does know how to belay to stand right next to the new climber and feed the rope to them so you always have a back up on the belay. That is the way i was taught after me little incident, by an ACMG friend of mine and that will always be the way that I will teach a new climber.
In reply to: ddint you tell him not to leave you from sight???? and dont teach belaying with a grigri. it makes a lazy belayer (itll catch, so why should i pay attention). its better to teach with an ATC and have somebody who knows what hes doing nearby in case something goes wrong (so he can help with braking and remind the belayer to pay attention). exactly Olord couldn't have said it better myself
In reply to: He seemed to have the TR belaying down and the route was only a 5.4. Just goes to show you man that even a short fall will kill you or hurt you beyond repair.
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dalguard
Aug 13, 2004, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: You have GOT TO BE FUKIN KIDDING ME!!!!! remind me never to climb with you . I can't even begin to think of how much is wrong with that top statement JESUS!!! If you aren't able to catch a climber within 15 feet on a TOPROPE!!!! Interesting. I thought he was leading and so did a lot of other people based on the responses. If he was on TR, there's really no excuse at all.
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j_ung
Aug 13, 2004, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You have GOT TO BE FUKIN KIDDING ME!!!!! remind me never to climb with you . I can't even begin to think of how much is wrong with that top statement JESUS!!! If you aren't able to catch a climber within 15 feet on a TOPROPE!!!! Interesting. I thought he was leading and so did a lot of other people based on the responses. If he was on TR, there's really no excuse at all. He was leading. A couple of people have misread the first post.
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markc
Aug 13, 2004, 6:25 PM
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As others have said, I'd consider changing my instruction rather than the belay device. When I take people climbing for the first time, it's almost always in a group setting. For someone's first day out, I prefer to let them focus on climbing. If they're interested enough to come again, it's time for a belay lesson. The first time someone belays, I'll do announced and unannounced falls fairly low on the route with someone backing up the belay. Even if someone is competent giving a belay on TR, they have to be taught how to give a lead belay. Feeding rope and anticipating the climber is much more involved. The belayer has to be aware that you can be pulled off if they aren't paying attention, and that their job as a belayer just became harder. Personally, I wouldn't choose to get a lead belay from someone their first day out. It seems like you made an error in judgment. Thankfully you're not paying too severely for it. mark
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