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crimper
Aug 31, 2004, 5:41 PM
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Registered: Nov 30, 2002
Posts: 58
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Ok... hello all. Here goes...
Surely seemingly repetative, and uber-simple... I am a new mind in the world of multi-pitch and even outdoor lead. I have been leading indoor, and practicing multi-pitch (indoors) for about a year now. So I am confident in my quickdraw placing abilities... yet, as far as cams: ify. I don't own a set of cams (yet) and am looking for a nice starter set (avec nuts) to get going.
Also, the entire logisitics of multi-pitch lead seems lost to me. I know how to lead, and to follow (ie cleaning the route). But what if I need to rap down. After the 3rd pitch of an 8 pitch. How do I do that? Or, what do I do when I get to the end, or how will i know it is the end short of reaching the top of the cliff... if so, what if there are no rap rings, or bots, do I down-climb or stick it out to the top...
And one more thing (so I don't kill myself): climbing lead indoors has not given me need to use slings (and the like). So, what gear (and how much of it) will i need for a trad climb / multi-pitch :?:
Thanks... any help will... um... help...
Crimper
:deadhorse:
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skateman
Aug 31, 2004, 5:51 PM
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Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 186
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Crimper,
First thing I would suggest is that you have a guide take you out on a multi-pitch. Also I would suggest an into to multi-pitch techniques class. If you don't own a copy os say
"Freedom of the Hills", get it. All of the questions you asked in your post would take me
a day to answer. The guide will introduce you to the concepts you are trying to grasp.
You can take note of what he uses for gear as well.
Good luck!
S
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reno
Aug 31, 2004, 5:55 PM
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Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
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Welcome to outdoor trad climbing, where the standard answer is "It Depends..."
Rapping from the 3rd pitch of an 8 pitch climb: Some trad areas acutally have bolted rap/belay anchors. If these are present, use 'em. If not, then you've got a few options:
* Leave gear.
* Slings/rap links on trees.
* Slings/rap links on rock features (small tunnels, horns, chicken heads, etc.)
* Downclimbing (every climber should learn to downclimb, IMHO.)
* Look for walk-offs.
* Keep climbing.
At the "top" your options will vary with each route. Walk-offs, raps, scrambles, etc. Get as much beta about the route before you go. Better yet, go with someone that has climbed that route before, and knows the descent.
Gear needed: "It Depends." Some trad lines (say, in Indian Creek,) can be done with 8 of the same sized cams, commercail draws, and little else. Others, like some lines in Eldo, the Flatirons, etc., require extendable draws, stoppers of all sizes, other gear options, and lots of knowledge.
There's the start of a Trad Climbing FAQ in the forums... go read it, as it contains many links to excellent information.
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caughtinside
Aug 31, 2004, 5:58 PM
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Registered: Jan 8, 2003
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Crimper,
Its good to see someone who has mastered placing quickdraws before they jump in to placing those complicated cams.
But, you should know how to rappel, and if you'll need two ropes to rappel on the route you're doing. Also, it sounds like you need to work on your understanding of anchors. How to build them, how to bail off of them, etc.
Your best bet is to find someone who knows to teach you. Reading a book wouldn't hurt either.
I wish the local gym here had multipitch...
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a3webhog
Aug 31, 2004, 7:21 PM
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Registered: Dec 15, 2002
Posts: 43
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Hey crimper-
Here's what I did
1. Read everything I could get my hands on
2. Practice everything I read in my garage or at a local crag
3. Climb as much as possible with experienced climbers
4. Hire guides to get one-one training and experience
It sounds like you are a smart, cautious climber. Issues like rescue, anchors, protection are very serious and you owe it to yourself to get properly up to speed.
Have fun climbing
- webhog
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livinonasandbar
Aug 31, 2004, 7:37 PM
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Registered: May 3, 2003
Posts: 356
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Get ahold of John Long's "How to Rock Climb" and read it about 6 times...
Then spend some money on some certified guides, or hook up up with that's been climbing a long time and is still alive. Pay attention and ask lots of questions.
On some of your questions... if you need to ask, perhaps you aren't ready to get out there on your own.
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davidio
Aug 31, 2004, 7:55 PM
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Registered: Aug 19, 2004
Posts: 36
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Can't help but second (or ninth at this point?) everbody else's opinion on finding somebody else to SHOW you how these things work in real life. Nothing can replace learning from somebody who knows a few different ways of how to make it up and down a multi-pitch safely. Sounds like you're ready for a mentor/guru. That's right, it's time to start baking cookies, buying beer, whatever it takes to get one of those old fogies at your crag who's been climbing since Harding first started swingin' in the valley to take you up some classic multi-pitches. Don't be afraid to ask folks to take you out climbing, for a lot of climbers the hardest thing about the sport is finding partners. Just be sure to go into it with an open mind and realize that there are at lease four ways to do everything in the climbing world, the more variations you learn the better.
Another point, I would recommend trying to become profecient with nuts before cams. Yes, you'll want every kind of pro you can get your hands on eventually, but nothing beats good nutcraft in a pinch (what would you rather leave behind on an unexpected rap?). Best of luck, climb hard, and don't forget those cookies!!
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ricardol
Aug 31, 2004, 8:00 PM
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Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
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Lets see.. first thing .. do a search for this topic, you'll find lots of posts that detail what a good starter rack for multipitch trad is, you'll also find posts detailing how to bail from a route, (with anchors, and without) .. you'll also find how to rig rappels (single and double line) ... etc .. etc ..
.. also .. all this info can be found in books like "From gym to crag" ..and the other excellent climbing books which are probably available at your indoor climbing gym.. i suggest you read up on the anchor books.
Given that, here is some info that will get you started
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good starter rack for multipitch.
* Note that the actual rack you need to climb a specific route is dictated by THAT route.. so i can't tell you what you need to climb, you need to read the topo, ask around, etc. But this is a decent all around rack that has served me well.
1 set of nuts racked on 2 biners
single blue and black aliens (i only use these on granite for trad)
double aliens from green to orange
double camalots #1, and #2
single camalots #3, #3.5, #4
Tricams, pink, brown, red. (all racked in 1 biner)
racking biner for each cam.
4 spare locking biners
5 spare non-locking biners
10 trad draws (shoulder lenght sling + 2 biners)
2 double length slings (plus locking biner)
1 reverso
2 5mm Titan cord cordalettes (20' long) + large PowerPoint locker each.
1 cleaning tool
This is my trad rack, i adjust it depending on the route i am climbing, and how well i know the type of pro that i will need.
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Bailing from a multipitch route.
Lets assume that each pitch on this climb is longer than 100' and there are no intermediary rappel stations (such as trees) between anchors.
This means that you will need 2 ropes to rappel, since one rope doubled over wont reach the anchors below you.
A good safety measure is to always bring a second rope when you are not sure wether you can complete the route. (* for the nitpickers! -- yes you could escape the route with 1 rope, even if there was no anchors between belay stations, by building your own anchors and leaving alot of gear on the route as you escape, but that is an emergency tactic.. i'd like for you to keep most of your gear when you have to bail)
So lets say that you've reached the 3rd belay of a route and there is a storm coming, so you decide to bail. You brough 2 ropes so it should be no problem reaching the previous anchor.
Steps to get ready to rappel.
1 - Anchor yourself with something OTHER than the climbing rope.
2 - secure your ropes to the anchor. (you can clove hitch the rope to a carabiner to the anchor)
3 - untie from the rope
4a If the anchor is 2 bolts with rap chains of rap links. (NOT JUST HANGERS -- NEVER SET UP A RAPPEL THROUGH THE BOLT HANGERS.. it may damage your rope)
feed one end of the rope through the chains (or links), and tie the ropes together. I use an EDK (European Death Knot).. do a search if you need to know how to tie this. (Or read a book)
4b if the bolted anchor does not have chains, then add a sling (webbing) to equalize the best 2 bolts. Add a rap ring to the equalized sling
Feed one end of the rope through the rap-ring, and tie the 2 ropes together.
4c If the anchor is a natural anchor (tree), then the nice thing to do is to put a sling around the tree (or 2 for redundancy) and place a rap-ring on the sling(s). (You can also ommit the rap ring).
Feed one end of the rope through the rap-ring, and tie the 2 ropes together.
4d If the anchor is a gear anchor, then you need to choose at least 2 pieces to leave behind. Pick 2 bomber pieces, if there is not 2 bomber peices, then i'd leave behind the whole anchor.
Once you have 2 bomber pieces, use a sling (or webbing) to equalize them, and place a rap ring at the power point. (Lots of ways to equalize 2 pieces, read up anchors..
this should cover over 90% of the anchors you'll bail from.. .the others will require you to be creative.
5 Coil the ropes separately and toss them, being careful to avoid whatever they can be snagged on, watch the wind, etc, etc. (** seomtimes you will want to tie stopper knots at the end of your ropes. I only do it when the station below is close to the end of the ropes, and i tie a figure eight onto the ends of the ropes. -- there are lots of ways to tie knots on the ends, and lots of reasons why you would want to do it, or not do it.. do a search.. alot of good flame wars have been started by this topic)
6 - you may now unsecure the ropes from the anchor (remember step 2)
7 - set yourself up on rappel. verify that your rappel is on correctly.
8 - examine the ropes one more time, and remember which side of the anchor the knot tying your 2 ropes together is on. since that is the side you will be pulling.
9 - remove yourself from the anchor.
]
10 - if you are the last climber, and the anchor has pieces that are not part of the rappel anchor, then clean that up. (or leave it there for the next party -- their win is your loss)
11 - rappel.
12 - when you reach the anchor below you, secure yourself, and start all over.
-----------------------------------
there are lots of things you can do to speed up rappelling, but i wont go into them since it will take too much to explain, go and try it and you'll figure them out for yourself.
-- ricardo
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