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awsclimber
Sep 10, 2004, 1:31 AM
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On those few occasions when you do rest on trad gear while on lead, does anybody clip directly to the piece, or do most of you just have the belayer take up as much slack as possible. Any reccomendations?
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holdplease2
Sep 10, 2004, 1:37 AM
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I clip directly into the piece, especially if communication with the belayer is difficult.
Never thought much about it before your post.
I guess having the belayer take up slack and tension the rope removes a the slack and a portion of the rope stretch from the system in the event that the peice were to blow when you weighted it, yeow.
-Kate.
edited for spelling
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 10, 2004, 1:39 AM
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Most of the time, it is better to clip in.
It tends to make sure that you inspect the piece before you weight it.
Not weighting the rope helps ensure that the lower pieces are less likely to walk.
It eliminates the problem of rope stretch.
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jv
Sep 10, 2004, 1:42 AM
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Resting on trad gear??? You mean after you fall??? Or when you're aiding???
JV
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holdplease2
Sep 10, 2004, 1:43 AM
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OK, I agree with alpnclmr1 on the point about not disturbing the other peices...which could get stuck or zipper out unexpectedly.
Some of these could be necessary to protect the second on a traverse or keep the rope out of a crack...and a sudden popping of a weighted peice down low could send you for a surprise ride if your route wanders.
-Kate.
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ricardol
Sep 10, 2004, 1:47 AM
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i usually clip into the piece.
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climbersoze
Sep 10, 2004, 1:49 AM
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Clip directly to the piece.
Having the extra slack in the rope gives you more mobility if you clip into the piece with a runner. Then you can screw around and do what you have to do without having to communicate with your belayer as much. of course your belayer still needs to know that you are clipped in to the piece, and should NOT take you off belay.
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takeme
Sep 10, 2004, 1:49 AM
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"few"???!!
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jt512
Sep 10, 2004, 2:04 AM
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In reply to: Resting on trad gear??? You mean after you fall??? JV
Ah, I was wondering why I couldn't think of an answer to the question.
-Jay
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 10, 2004, 2:25 AM
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Jay, Unlike sport weinies who rip their fingertips off trying to send 'THE MOVE" many of us tradsters shamlessly clip the daisy into the piece and take a hang. this may sometimes be excused by claiming to need to set the stopper before commiting to the crux :D Clipping directly to the piece with the daisy ensures that you will not lose precious inches of upward progress by way of the dredded rope streach. These tactics are deemed acceptable due to the fact that it may be a long way to the top and a gear intensive expensive retrete if the top is not reached. another hazard is the ice in your cooler melting and the beer getting warm while you screw arround up there on the cliff. This could be fatal if you are forced to bivy and then climb hard the next morning, top out and then hike back to the van in mid day heat to find no food and warm beer :shock: Next time don't be afraid to use your bag of tricks. Climb it while we are young, by hook and/ or crook :twisted:
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pico23
Sep 10, 2004, 2:59 AM
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depends on the route. straight route i'd just have the belay take slack. wondering or ledgy I'd clip in. Of course if your resting on trad gear it's called aid gear...but that a whole other thread in iteself.
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euroford
Sep 10, 2004, 1:22 PM
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if your name is tommy or beth, and you need to free that stuff to make your blurb in R&I, this kind of tactic would be inappropriote. but if your name is Tim, you have to be back at work on Monday and there's no way your leaving your hard earned trad gear on retreat you do what ya gotta do.
nothing wrong with a little A0 when you need it, slap on a clove hitch and rest on a piece if you need to, pull on gear if you need to. the ability to A0 yourself up through a tough part is a valuable survival skill every trad leader should know.
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healyje
Sep 10, 2004, 1:48 PM
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Clipping and resting to clean gear for a retreat is fine. But the "trad" in trad climbing doesn't refer to the gear it refers to the ethic. The ethic is no resting or hangdogging on gear - and in most places (circa 70's) it also meant if you do fall, you come down and pull the rope and reclip on another attempt.
If you went to Eldo, the Gunks, or the Valley in the 70's you heard people yelling "falling" all the time - a big change from today when 99.9% of the time you what you hear is "take". Hangdogging (resting) was always considered a pretty scurrilous act and many of us still consider it "aerial bouldering", i.e. you aren't really climbing, but rather taking the ground up with you and are progressively bouldering up the route.
"Aerial Bouldering" no doubt has a place in the development of some routes above about 5.11/12, but I personally wish in the beginning that routes done in this way were labelled as such (like "5.12d-ab") so you knew it wasn't clean ground up ascent.
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euroford
Sep 10, 2004, 2:17 PM
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i guess i'm thinking in terms of alpine esque long multipitch routes, in this scenerio you do what ya gotta do to top out in many cases, obviously you want to do things in the best style possable, but IMO, in the alpine enviroment the best style is fast and safe.
for general trad cragging, resting and pulling on gear would be bad style. i wasn't thinking eldo/gunks style cragging. IMO: thats just dumb to even bring up the topic for basic cragging.
yeah, if your at eldo, don't be a punk, give er yer all and take the wipper if yer all ain't enough.
if your doing the casual route on longs, i suggest you not put your life and your partners life in danger, and just swallow your pride, pull on gear, and get to the top, becouse your wife will call search and rescue in the morning if your not home and your beer is getting warm back in the car.
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dingus
Sep 10, 2004, 2:49 PM
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dmt
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flamer
Sep 10, 2004, 2:53 PM
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In reply to: Most of the time, it is better to clip in. It tends to make sure that you inspect the piece before you weight it. Not weighting the rope helps ensure that the lower pieces are less likely to walk. It eliminates the problem of rope stretch.
This is interesting to me.
The point about gear walking is a good one, truly food for thought.
I always take on the rope, for several reason's.
For one it's more efficent, futzing around trying to clip and unclip from the piece takes time. Clipping directly in is more like aid mode- if you're trying to move fast it's better to stay in "free-mode".
Usually if I'm taking it means I can't hold on anymore, so I'm probably not going to have the juice to clip directly into the gear.
If you used runners appropriately the walking concern is a non-issue...no?
josh
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euroford
Sep 10, 2004, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: But over all, the taboo has severed (edit - served!, kinda funny Freudian slip there) me well and kept me attached to the rock when the stakes were high. I'd rather turn over the sharp end to my better than a0 my way up a pitch my partner can free.
absolutly true. but would you ever knowingly set out on a pitch that an A0 would be required even though your partner could free it? i doubt it, and i wouldn't, pulling out the A0 tactics is for the unexpected difficulties that you didn't anticipate, at a time when passing over the lead may be difficult, impossable or unreasonably time consuming. speed is safety in the mountains, so swallowing your pride and A0ing through, though the undesirable thing, is in many cases the 'right' thing to do.
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dingus
Sep 10, 2004, 3:18 PM
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dmt
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healyje
Sep 10, 2004, 3:54 PM
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No one is suggesting, that when you come to a moment when you know a leg break is imminent that you go ahead and break it, or that you spend the night in your harness when you're three pitches from the top in Black Canyon near dark on a day that didn't go so hot.
But if you are hanging on gear repeatedly something is wrong and typically it's that you're in over your head again, and again. Back off a bit and work your way back up the grades if that's the case. Bring your abilities along in style within the ethic and in the long run you'll also end up a better and safer climber.
(And when in the gym or TR, downclimb lots of stuff, get used to doing it and doing it well, it will mean you can get back down to real rests.)
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pico23
Sep 10, 2004, 4:44 PM
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with A0 but I wouldn't call it a trad ascent. It's aiding. Really I couldn't care less what people do but it's still important to be honest about your ascents.
I've rarely rested on my gear before a fall, and since I've rarely fallen I've rarely rested on it at all. but if pulling my gear or resting on it meant the difference between getting back home unscathed or via the hospital I'd definitely have no reservations about using gear as an "aid" to get to the top of a free "trad" route.
My personal oppinion (and thats all it is) is that the tendency to use gear as an aid on a free route should be proportional to the commitment level of the route. If I was 6 pitches off the deck on Katahdin (with no easy retreat) I'd think nothing of using gear to summit and get back down. If I was 10 feet off the belay at the Gunks I'd call it a day and come back when I had the skills or the balls to do the climb properly. The exception to this generalized rule for me is the amount of gear I'd have to leave behind for a safe retreat even when cragging.
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pico23
Sep 10, 2004, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: But if you are hanging on gear repeatedly something is wrong and typically it's that you're in over your head again, and again. Back off a bit and work your way if that's the case. Bring your abilities along in style within the ethic and in the long run you'll also end up a better and safer climber. ( And when in the gym or TR, downclimb lots of stuff, get used to doing it and doing it well, it will mean you can get back down to real rests.)
Nice way to summarize.
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pico23
Sep 10, 2004, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Most of the time, it is better to clip in. It tends to make sure that you inspect the piece before you weight it. Not weighting the rope helps ensure that the lower pieces are less likely to walk. It eliminates the problem of rope stretch. If you used runners appropriately the walking concern is a non-issue...no? josh
Nope, the rope is going to pull on the gear regardless of how you set the runners. It might not rip them out but it very well might shift them as tension enters the system. Lower off a climb sometime and see how your gear is being pulled.
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rcaret
Sep 10, 2004, 5:01 PM
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I clip in , I can give the belayer somewhat of rest too by having them slack the line a little and use a mule knot just as a back up on th ATC . :lol:
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curt
Sep 10, 2004, 5:09 PM
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In reply to: Most of the time, it is better to clip in. It tends to make sure that you inspect the piece before you weight it. Not weighting the rope helps ensure that the lower pieces are less likely to walk. It eliminates the problem of rope stretch.
Clipping into the top piece also puts roughly half the force on the top piece as if your belayer holds you on the rope. If you really need to rest and just fired in a less than perfect placement, this is another thing to consider.
Curt
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flamer
Sep 10, 2004, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Most of the time, it is better to clip in. It tends to make sure that you inspect the piece before you weight it. Not weighting the rope helps ensure that the lower pieces are less likely to walk. It eliminates the problem of rope stretch. If you used runners appropriately the walking concern is a non-issue...no? josh Nope, the rope is going to pull on the gear regardless of how you set the runners. It might not rip them out but it very well might shift them as tension enters the system. Lower off a climb sometime and see how your gear is being pulled.
I have, (probably alot more than you have) lowered off and watched how the rope pulled on the gear. What I can tell you is every situation is different. Sometimes you'll pull on every piece, sometimes you won't pull on any but the top and bottom piece's. There are lot's of factors that contribute to all of this....BUT!! If you use runners correctly you can defiantly control the walking of gear....
Climbing and climbing gear is all about direction of pull, how you manage it makes all the difference.
josh
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