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chucky
Sep 23, 2004, 9:57 PM
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Ok when a webolette is used to equalize an anchor....
1) lead climber clove hitches into a locker on powerpoint
2) if a reverso is used it also can be attached to powerpoint via a seperate locker then the leader's clove hitch.
? now when the follwer arrives and belay station where is it best to place their clove hitch
a) on a third locker at the powerpoint? it seems to be getting crowded...what are the other common or preferred choices here?
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squish
Sep 23, 2004, 10:01 PM
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Keep the second on the reverso. Tie him off.
Take his belay device, and pass him the rack.
You put him on belay, he takes the reverso, and leads on.
(I think this was a Climbing TechTip a while back or something...)
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chucky
Sep 23, 2004, 10:04 PM
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Ya i saw this in climbing...
now if the second is going to lead the next pitch...whats the most effcient way to set up the belay for the next pitch, which will be lead by climber who lead the prvious pitch?
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chucky
Sep 23, 2004, 10:08 PM
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when you say tie him off using the reverso....how is that done....i assume the reverso stays at the powerpoint?
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chucky
Sep 23, 2004, 10:12 PM
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when using a cordalette a "top shelf" is created...the belay device can attach here or the leader/belayer.
but when a webolette is used the "top shelf" is not available so where is the 2nd attachment point?
is ok to attach two lockers to the powerpoint?
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tedc
Sep 23, 2004, 10:13 PM
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In reply to: Ya i saw this in climbing... now if the second is going to lead the next pitch...whats the most effcient way to set up the belay for the next pitch, which will be lead by climber who lead the prvious pitch?
IMO
If you will lead again on the next pitch just clove to the best piece, NOT the powerpoint. Leave the powerpoint for the second to tie into when they arrive. If all your pieces are good enough, clove into the one that is farthest in the direction that you intend to lead next that way you will not have to climb around the belayer.
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tedc
Sep 23, 2004, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: when you say tie him off using the reverso....how is that done....i assume the reverso stays at the powerpoint?
The reverso is self locking so all you really need is to tie a backup knot and clip it to something.
This method really only works well if you intend to use another (the second's?) belay device to belay the second as they start leading.
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squish
Sep 24, 2004, 4:20 AM
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In reply to: when you say tie him off using the reverso....how is that done....i assume the reverso stays at the powerpoint?
Yes. The reverso is on the power point in self-locking mode, and holds the second at the anchor while you swap gear. Technically, you shouldn't really need to tie it off. (You'll be putting him on the second belay device right away, and besides, he'll be on his way pretty quickly.) So, in most cases, I would just let the reverso alone hold him, but if you're going to be messing about for a while, snacking, taking pics, etc, then it's a good idea to tie a knot behind the device.
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lightandfast
Sep 24, 2004, 6:18 AM
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tedc is out to lunch! Why have a fully equalized point, then go tie into single pieces? Think about it man! That is stupid! At a 2 bolt anchor, do you gat 1 bolt and your partner the other.
Does the "c" in "tedc" stand for carless?
holy fuck here we go..............................................
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squish
Sep 24, 2004, 6:47 AM
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In reply to: is ok to attach two lockers to the powerpoint? |
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cfnubbler
Sep 24, 2004, 12:33 PM
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I'll assume you'll be leading all the pitches, as there are generally much better ways to build your anchor than with a cordalette if swapping leads.
The most convenient thing to do is use the "shelf" above your powerpoint. I'll often put the Reverso there, as it separates the belay strands from my tie-in and allows enough room for my second to get in to the power point. When your second arrives, they clip in with a clove hitch (could be backed up with a second tether of some sort if you wish- not strictly speaking necessary, but certainly not a bad idea) on a locker to the power point next to your clip in. Disassemble the Reverso, re-rack, and you're off.
Tedc is out to lunch on this one; Clip in to one piece and get yourself off belay??? That's some seriously bad advice, and a good way to end up a statistic. Hey Ted, do you at least use a locker???
-Nubbler
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chucky
Sep 24, 2004, 2:42 PM
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Yes i totally dont agree with anchoring into the best piece....thats lacking the key....redundancy.....
my concern is not having a top shelf when using a web-o-lette. So i have a powerpoint with three lockers, one for each climber and then one for reverso....
this is my concern........
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slobmonster
Sep 24, 2004, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: this is my concern........ |
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rockprodigy
Sep 24, 2004, 7:26 PM
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Not to change the subject, but I wouldn't recommend setting up a Gri-Gri like that because it eliminates the possibility of a dynamic belay. Better to clip the GG to yourself and run the rope through the anchor point, then down to the second. Discuss amongst yourselves.
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squish
Sep 24, 2004, 10:24 PM
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In reply to: Tedc is out to lunch on this one; Clip in to one piece and get yourself off belay??? That's some seriously bad advice, and a good way to end up a statistic
Technically, the criteria that it fails isn't redundancy, but "no extension." The piece is connected to the rest of your anchor, so it is redundant, but it will shockload if that single piece pulls.
I've done this, by clipping my daisy to a side piece to reduce crowding. However, I use two attachment points, these being my daisy and the rope (or else double ropes), with the rope always connected to the power point to reduce extension.
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slobmonster
Sep 24, 2004, 11:09 PM
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In reply to: Not to change the subject... Discuss amongst yourselves.
It's fine to attach the Gri-Gri as illustrated. The argument that such a configuration does not provide a dynamic belay, though intended to be thoughtful, is bunk. If you're not confident in your anchor, then belaying off your waist might be a better idea; however, since you've read these posts assiduously, and you know how to build an excellent, clean belay anchor, you know that said anchor is solid enough not only to hold your own weight, a fall by your second, but also (and most importantly) to hold your whole little world if the leader whips on the subsequent pitch.
FYI You would attach a Munter hitch, Reverso, or a Plaquette in exactly the same manner.
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telluryan
Sep 24, 2004, 11:15 PM
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is it wise to only attach yourself to the anchor w/ a clove hitch and be tied in at that one point?? where is the redundancy?? i have always tied off at 2 points, 1 w/ the rope, one w/ a daisy or sling? any thoughts???
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rockprodigy
Sep 25, 2004, 12:54 AM
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In reply to: FYI You would attach a Munter hitch, Reverso, or a Plaquette in exactly the same manner.
Yes, but all of those devices are "dynamic" belay devices, they actually permit the rope to slip through the system slightly when holding a fall. The Gri Gri is special because it locks the rope instantly, with no slippage. Since you are not counterweighting the belay in your setup, there is absolutely no give. There was a report about this in the AAC News about 2 years ago describing a study that was done in Europe that found extremely high fall forces were generated by gri gris because of this.
Besides, belaying like that makes it really hard to lock someone off tight.
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slobmonster
Sep 25, 2004, 1:28 AM
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In reply to: Yes, but all of those devices are "dynamic" belay devices
However, your anchor should be able to hold these forces. And much greater ones as well.
In reply to: Besides, belaying like that makes it really hard to lock someone off tight. |
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karlbaba
Sep 25, 2004, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Yes, but all of those devices are "dynamic" belay devices Very true. However, your anchor should be able to hold these forces. And much greater ones as well. In reply to: Besides, belaying like that makes it really hard to lock someone off tight. Nope, sorry. Their weighting the rope engages the Gri-Gri's cam. It's *super* easy to hold a seconding climber like this. In addition, you can rig a haul lickety-split.
Rock Prodigy- You are talking about belaying the leader, The anchor shown is clearly to belay the second and there is no need for a dynamic belay for the second. This is exactly the kind of setup the AMGA teaches for belaying the second off the anchor,
Cheers
karl
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