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cosmokramer
Oct 4, 2004, 2:53 PM
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I was working a 5.11c sport route yesterday (certainly at the edge of my capabilities after 10 months rock climbing) at Enchanted Rock (all granite) and at 2 of the 7 bolts, after throwing a quick draw into the bolted hanger and roping in, I used the quickdraw to dynamically propel myself upward by pulling on the webbing so I could gain upward momentum to slap my next hold, as I just couldn't seem to find another option.
Is it safe to hang/pull on a quickdraw that has been placed (assuming good bolts) if you hold it by the webbing with your hand, or is this a big no-no? (Remember, I wasn't going for style points or an on-sight, I just wanted to get up the damn wall, and I did, using the method that I described above)
Your constructive criticism is welcome...positive people only please.
Thanks,
CK
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killclimbz
Oct 4, 2004, 2:55 PM
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You can use the big nylon handhold to get you through it. It's been done thousands of times by many climbers.
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jammer
Oct 4, 2004, 3:01 PM
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It's nice to see a positive reply :wink:
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timstich
Oct 4, 2004, 3:11 PM
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Yes, the nylon handhold is a fine option other than yelling at your belayer to take and not getting it. Combine this fine technique with clipping another draw into the carabiner holding the rope and then into your belay loop for even more fine control that cuts your inept belayer out of the loop.
"Damn dude. I said, TAKE."
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sarcat
Oct 4, 2004, 3:14 PM
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Any one who says "I've NEVER done it" is lying. I'd be suspect as to their character.
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jakedatc
Oct 4, 2004, 3:15 PM
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if you are working the route to eventually redpoint it wouldnt you rather hang there then try to work out the moves so that you'll know how to do them in the future?.. sure after trying a few times pulling on your draw to just get the thing done will work
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aarong
Oct 4, 2004, 3:16 PM
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Congrats. you just discovered french-free technique.
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miklaw
Oct 4, 2004, 3:28 PM
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Holding (or more pertinately, grabbing) a 'draw increases the chances of it unclipping, this is most dangerous at about the 2nd bolt level. From really small to minimal, but I've seen it twice now.
But everyone else is right, pulling on gear is the only way to free climb...
You must balance working routes (where you get strong and learn what you can do) with climbing things well (about 2 grades lower), where you learn to climb.
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jakedatc
Oct 4, 2004, 4:08 PM
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In reply to: Holding (or more pertinately, grabbing) a 'draw increases the chances of it unclipping, this is most dangerous at about the 2nd bolt level. From really small to minimal, but I've seen it twice now. But everyone else is right, pulling on gear is the only way to free climb... You must balance working routes (where you get strong and learn what you can do) with climbing things well (about 2 grades lower), where you learn to climb.
what? lol holding onto a draw is the same exact situation as hanging (with the rope) from a draw..
how is pulling on gear free climbing? that's called Aid climbing.. see a few forums down :)
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overlord
Oct 4, 2004, 5:35 PM
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its perfectly safe to pull on a draw. but then its not a free ascent, but A0.
i have never heard of the draw unclipping in such a situation. i guess it could be possibel if you pulled in a REALLY strange way that would crossload the gate and opened it. but if you apply downward force on the slong, youre perfectly safe.
one thing though. if youre clipped onto the bolts with some draws, unclip before trying to climb. if you fall on draws its gonna hurt you because there are no force absorbing pieces in the system (unless the belayer pulls some rope).
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mgr
Oct 4, 2004, 7:39 PM
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I've heard that you can get your finger get caught in the carabiner and if you fall it could be ripped off. I don't know if this true though.
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crimpandgo
Oct 4, 2004, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: I've heard that you can get your finger get caught in the carabiner and if you fall it could be ripped off. I don't know if this true though.
I cringe everytime I see someone grabbing for the hanger for this very reason :shock: :o
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killclimbz
Oct 4, 2004, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I've heard that you can get your finger get caught in the carabiner and if you fall it could be ripped off. I don't know if this true though. I cringe everytime I see someone grabbing for the hanger for this very reason :shock: :o
Biner, I doubt it. On a hanger, I would imagine it's possible.
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miklaw
Oct 4, 2004, 8:14 PM
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Dunno about a losing a finger, but myself and one other have broken fingers grabbing draws (I was holding on to pull high and brush a hold when a foot pooped off a smear and broke something in my little finger).
I have seen one bloke unclip himself by grabbing a draw from above, and have heard about one other.
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saskclimber
Oct 4, 2004, 8:18 PM
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I tore a ligament in my finger for this exact reason. My hand slipped down the nylon on a draw I was holding, finger went inside the biner, and it got twisted as I fell. I'm lucky I didn't break it or worse. I hate seeing people grab draws. Just to say that you made out just fine doesn't mean the next person to try it will too.
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miklaw
Oct 5, 2004, 3:39 PM
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Oh yes, if you wear a ring, it doesn't take much force to de-glove your finger, not pretty.
But pulling on draws is pretty common and safe generally.
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feanor007
Oct 5, 2004, 3:59 PM
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i might be worng, but doesn't grabbing a draw nix the redpoint? i've always been taught that if you can't stick a move it's not the rocks fault, and grabbing a draw, sling, etc, destroys the free aspect of a climb. that said, i grab draws all the time, i just don't count them as redpoints, i count them as if i hang-dogged.
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sonso45
Oct 5, 2004, 4:02 PM
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pulling draws works, unless it is an old route with a leeper hanger on it. They are still around, usually rust colored and thinner than newer hangers. I have a friend who broke his ankle cause he grabbed a biner, twisted it as his body weight landed on it and the hanger snapped. Newer hangers work well for french free, so far. M
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thewyseclimber
Oct 5, 2004, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: its perfectly safe to pull on a draw. but then its not a free ascent, but A0. i have never heard of the draw unclipping in such a situation. i guess it could be possibel if you pulled in a REALLY strange way that would crossload the gate and opened it. but if you apply downward force on the slong, youre perfectly safe. one thing though. if youre clipped onto the bolts with some draws, unclip before trying to climb. if you fall on draws its gonna hurt you because there are no force absorbing pieces in the system (unless the belayer pulls some rope).
I think R&I 137 has a section how a 4 foot fall can kill you. Especially in aid climbing, be sure to not clip your daisy such that in a fall it takes the force of the fall. Or even, as overlord points out, falling a foot back onto a static clip with your draw to your harness is really going to be a jolt. Migh even dmage your kidneys.
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alderak
Oct 5, 2004, 4:27 PM
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I've heard of people having their hand punctured by the carabiner when their feet pop... but it doesn't stop me from yankin on the quickdraw when I have the need... I don't like to do it, and that stuff is in the back of my head... but it can save me a lot of work recovering gear if I can make it to the anchor rather than have to back off halfway.
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crimpandgo
Oct 5, 2004, 4:32 PM
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Yankin on that draw could be the difference in climbing the rest of the day verses decking, particularly if your yanking on the second or third draw. Probably not good practice nor good form, but If I feel like I am in a particularly unsafe position and I am getting sketched, I will yank away :)
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sarcat
Oct 5, 2004, 4:34 PM
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Dosen't that put hair on your palms?
Made you look. :D
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ricochetred
Oct 5, 2004, 4:47 PM
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I am short and have had occasion to use draws as holds to get me past a reachy section. I usually work it a few times, but don't like wasting all my finger skin and energy flailing for something I know is height dependent. I'd rather get past it and work the rest of the route than get totally shut down. As far as putting a finger into the bolt...NEVER! The thought scares me. I think I once used one as a foot hold however.
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killclimbz
Oct 5, 2004, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: i might be worng, but doesn't grabbing a draw nix the redpoint? i've always been taught that if you can't stick a move it's not the rocks fault, and grabbing a draw, sling, etc, destroys the free aspect of a climb. that said, i grab draws all the time, i just don't count them as redpoints, i count them as if i hang-dogged.
Yes it does. If you are grabbing the draw you've already conceded to the fact that you are not going to get the redpoint, onsight, maybe you can call it a brownpoint.
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eyecannon
Oct 5, 2004, 7:24 PM
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I only grab a draw if I'm in a precarious position, not yet clipped in, and if I don't grab it, I will take a whipper.
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