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grin-n-barrett
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Oct 4, 2004, 3:15 AM
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is the new gear worth the wait? It seems that all their gear is top of the line and now might be a good time to start putting together my rack...any thoughts?
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sbaclimber
Oct 4, 2004, 4:06 AM
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C4s!!!!!
You show up at the crag with those and you will be the envy of all the other trad climbers (and yes they will think that you are a poser when they are still shiny and new, especially if it happens to be a sport crag ;-) )
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mgr
Oct 4, 2004, 7:50 PM
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Although, now that the new cams are out, all the old ones are going to be on sale. This is good because if you are building your rack it is already going to be expensive. Try and cut down the price as much as you can.
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caughtinside
Oct 4, 2004, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: C4s!!!!! You show up at the crag with those and you will be the envy of all the other trad climbers
Hmmm... No. :P
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markc
Oct 4, 2004, 8:22 PM
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If you have old stuff, probably not. If you're building, I'd say it's a decision between the scale and the wallet. With the new cams hitting the market, the old units should see a significant mark-down. The only design points I hear stressed repeatedly are the lighter weight and the thumb loop.
Some people will spend twice as much on a biner if it shaves weight off their rack. They use ultra-thin cordage and drill holes in their toothbrush when doing walls. Others realize they have more spare pounds on their frame than on the rack. With my disposable income a few years ago, I decided to rack on ovals. I'm not really doing routes where the weight of the rack is going to be a huge factor in my success. YMMV.
In other words, I'm afraid it's a personal decision.
mark
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sbaclimber
Oct 4, 2004, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: C4s!!!!! You show up at the crag with those and you will be the envy of all the other trad climbers Hmmm... No. :P
ok, my bad, I should have written "..... alot of other climbers (such as myself) will drool all over your shiney new toys" :D
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chico
Oct 5, 2004, 4:18 PM
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I don't know man. I must say that I'm pretty leary of BD cams in general. I've used Camalots for a long long time, and I've always liked how buttery smooth they operate. But that is also their drawback. They are smooth because they have weaker springs than some other cams out there. This means that in the event of a fall they have a lower pull out strength. Remember that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction? So...as the cam opens up, there is a split second where it bounces back in. The stronger the spring, the less in bounces back, the weaker the spring the more it bounces back. This means that is not so great wet placements, or on parallel sandstone cracks, they have a lower pullout strength, and are more likely to blow. I'm not making this up either, you can do the research and look it up and see that it is true. Also the double axle design is good because it can be placed as passive pro. However, it also allows the cam to walk. Try this- take a BD cam oh lets say #1 or #2 close the cam lobes, hold them shut with your hand, and mone the stem back and forth. You will see how the axles work off of each other th make the cam walk. My advice, screw BD and go Wild Country. (BD stands for "Big Dissapointment!")
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forkliftdaddy
Oct 5, 2004, 4:52 PM
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I see no reason to turn this into a Friends vs. Camalots debate. I love my Forged Friends and my Camalots, my TCUs and my Aliens. Each cam design has its own strengths and weaknesses.
I spoke to a friend about the C4s. He had a chance to try some out for about a week and said they felt significantly lighter. He said it took a little time to get used to the new stem, especially when placing them in a crack in a dihedral, but that in his opinion they are nicer. Can't wait to try them.
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ryanpfleger
Oct 5, 2004, 5:20 PM
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Chico... where can I look it up? I would like to see some more info on why Camalots have a lower pullout strength. The reason you mentioned seems to be physically impossible to me. In the event of a fall all the fall forces will be working to expand the cams, whatever "bounce" forces there may be would be working against these downward forces which are transfered into outward forces on the cams. The additional force of the springs is going to be negligible. Weaker springs can cause a unit to walk more, I'll give you that, but thats not what you described.
Ryan
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abbysomebody
Oct 5, 2004, 6:05 PM
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Are you kidding?! BD cams are amazing! Wild Country?! Those have to be the worst cams I've climbed with! If you were to say Metolius or Aliens I might give you some credit, but not Wild Country. Your whole scare-fest about BD cams blowing seems pretty far-fetched. Maybe you have a physics in PhD and you've done all the math, I don't know, but you should recognize the extremely small likelihood of a human generating anywhere near the force those things are rated for. The safety of the cams available is not an issue, they're designed to stop a truck and if they weren't they wouldn't be on the market. So pick your cams based on personal preference not some bogus scary story. With that said, the new BD cams are fantastic- my buddy had a demo set from the gear shop he works at and the difference in weight between the old and new was astounding. However, as someone pointed out, you'll probably be able to get great deals on the current models (my friend was already selling his old cams to make way for the new model) so if you want to save some money that might be a good option, but if you're willing to drop some cash and save a lot of weight the new ones are great.
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microbdcamalot
Oct 5, 2004, 6:07 PM
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man fuck money, both bd cams are the same shit man. once phancyer so they can charge more.
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jebel_andi
Oct 5, 2004, 8:31 PM
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When building a rack buy only exatly what you want, don't buy something cheaper than what you want and say "Its just a starter rack, I will replace thos cams later on." A trad rack is for life, you never replace any thing you only add to your rack. If you want BD cams then wait till you got the money for them, you won't regret later when you have them. Also use some one else's gear before you buy your own, as you will have a better idea of what you want.
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savedbymynuts
Oct 5, 2004, 9:11 PM
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In reply to: When building a rack buy only exatly what you want, don't buy something cheaper than what you want and say "Its just a starter rack, I will replace thos cams later on." A trad rack is for life, you never replace any thing you only add to your rack. If you want BD cams then wait till you got the money for them, you won't regret later when you have them. Also use some one else's gear before you buy your own, as you will have a better idea of what you want.
double that I have never regretted a more expensive piece of equipment but I have been disappointed of having a older model with out the new improvements it is not so bad if you can convince your self that it served you well for a couple of years and it use to be the best.
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hugepedro
Oct 5, 2004, 9:51 PM
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In reply to: I don't know man. I must say that I'm pretty leary of BD cams in general. I've used Camalots for a long long time, and I've always liked how buttery smooth they operate. But that is also their drawback. They are smooth because they have weaker springs than some other cams out there. This means that in the event of a fall they have a lower pull out strength. Remember that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction? So...as the cam opens up, there is a split second where it bounces back in. The stronger the spring, the less in bounces back, the weaker the spring the more it bounces back. This means that is not so great wet placements, or on parallel sandstone cracks, they have a lower pullout strength, and are more likely to blow. I'm not making this up either, you can do the research and look it up and see that it is true. Also the double axle design is good because it can be placed as passive pro. However, it also allows the cam to walk. Try this- take a BD cam oh lets say #1 or #2 close the cam lobes, hold them shut with your hand, and mone the stem back and forth. You will see how the axles work off of each other th make the cam walk. My advice, screw BD and go Wild Country. (BD stands for "Big Dissapointment!")
Uh, I'm going to go out on a limb here (not) and say that the springs have nothing to do with the, as you call it, "pull out strength".
You're going to have to post up some data to prove this if you're going to post something like that, because I'm calling B.S.
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rokshoxbkr19
Oct 5, 2004, 10:01 PM
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I am a guide and I climb trad all over the country; My rack is predominantly made up of Rock Empire cams. They are great and they are wicked cheap. I am not saying go buy them. I am saying I love them and I hate BD cams which is pretty much the opposite of 99% of the climbing world. Try all the cams out, see what you like and then look at price. If you like the cheap ones that is great, but if you like the expensive ones you will be happier if you save more and get those. Get what you like bro. No one can tell you what is best because it is personal preference.
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furrymurry
Oct 6, 2004, 12:56 AM
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I'm just excited that BD is coming out with new designs because that means I just got to pick a few camalots for 20% off at the local shop, and they NEVER have gear on sale. I'm sure the new developments and lighter factor would be nice, but someone else said I need to shed a few pounds myself before I start over-obsessing about gear weight.
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mingleefu
Oct 6, 2004, 2:04 AM
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Both the Old and New sets of cams (like most any cam on the market now-a-days) are color coded and given numbers for each size. It may be worth noting that the new Camalots have differences in that color coding and numbering system, if I've heard correctly. For instance, The same size cam that used to be called a #4 in the old set will be labeled a #5 in the new set.
If you are not able to buy a full set of the old cams, this might get confusing if you buy a partial set of old and then a partial set of new. You could end up with two different size cams that are both #5. capiche?
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epic_ed
Oct 6, 2004, 2:05 AM
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Chino -- a perfect example of someone who is talking out their ass, or a classic example of a pitiful troll.
Personally, I'm buying a couple of the discounted "old style" Camlots. Like I need more cams, anyway. :roll:
Ed
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rockrat_co
Oct 6, 2004, 2:35 AM
Post #19 of 87
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In reply to: I don't know man. I must say that I'm pretty leary of BD cams in general. I've used Camalots for a long long time, and I've always liked how buttery smooth they operate. But that is also their drawback. They are smooth because they have weaker springs than some other cams out there. This means that in the event of a fall they have a lower pull out strength. Remember that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction? So...as the cam opens up, there is a split second where it bounces back in. The stronger the spring, the less in bounces back, the weaker the spring the more it bounces back. This means that is not so great wet placements, or on parallel sandstone cracks, they have a lower pullout strength, and are more likely to blow. I'm not making this up either, you can do the research and look it up and see that it is true. Also the double axle design is good because it can be placed as passive pro. However, it also allows the cam to walk. Try this- take a BD cam oh lets say #1 or #2 close the cam lobes, hold them shut with your hand, and mone the stem back and forth. You will see how the axles work off of each other th make the cam walk. My advice, screw BD and go Wild Country. (BD stands for "Big Dissapointment!")
I must say, the spring strength has hardly anything to do with a cam's holding power. rather the curves of the pieces create a "camming action", or a force outwards when there is a downwards force applied. The springs in the cams will not determine the holding strength, the surcace area, material strength, and hinge strength are the primary factors!
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shutupandclimb
Oct 6, 2004, 6:14 AM
Post #20 of 87
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In reply to: I don't know man. I must say that I'm pretty leary of BD cams in general. I've used Camalots for a long long time, and I've always liked how buttery smooth they operate. But that is also their drawback. They are smooth because they have weaker springs than some other cams out there. This means that in the event of a fall they have a lower pull out strength. Remember that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction? So...as the cam opens up, there is a split second where it bounces back in. The stronger the spring, the less in bounces back, the weaker the spring the more it bounces back. This means that is not so great wet placements, or on parallel sandstone cracks, they have a lower pullout strength, and are more likely to blow. I'm not making this up either, you can do the research and look it up and see that it is true. Also the double axle design is good because it can be placed as passive pro. However, it also allows the cam to walk. Try this- take a BD cam oh lets say #1 or #2 close the cam lobes, hold them shut with your hand, and mone the stem back and forth. You will see how the axles work off of each other th make the cam walk. My advice, screw BD and go Wild Country. (BD stands for "Big Dissapointment!")
I don't know where you are getting this "bouce back in" from, that makes no sense at all. As someone mentioned, the spring force is negleble compared to the force caused by the camming action.
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coldclimb
Oct 6, 2004, 9:28 AM
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In reply to: I don't know man. I must say that I'm pretty leary of BD cams in general. I've used Camalots for a long long time, and I've always liked how buttery smooth they operate. But that is also their drawback. They are smooth because they have weaker springs than some other cams out there. This means that in the event of a fall they have a lower pull out strength. Remember that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction? So...as the cam opens up, there is a split second where it bounces back in. The stronger the spring, the less in bounces back, the weaker the spring the more it bounces back. This means that is not so great wet placements, or on parallel sandstone cracks, they have a lower pullout strength, and are more likely to blow. I'm not making this up either, you can do the research and look it up and see that it is true. Also the double axle design is good because it can be placed as passive pro. However, it also allows the cam to walk. Try this- take a BD cam oh lets say #1 or #2 close the cam lobes, hold them shut with your hand, and mone the stem back and forth. You will see how the axles work off of each other th make the cam walk. My advice, screw BD and go Wild Country. (BD stands for "Big Dissapointment!")
With all due respect, your post defies logic. :? The spring strength has nothing to do with holding the cam in when you fall. That's why it's a cam. When you fall, friction and the force of the fall itself pushes the lobes out. Springs simply hold it in place while you climb. This bounce back stuff is not true as anyone who has messed with a cam very much at all can tell you. Where the heck did you get this stuff from???
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mingleefu
Oct 6, 2004, 3:46 PM
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In reply to: They are smooth because they have weaker springs than some other cams out there. This means that in the event of a fall they have a lower pull out strength. Remember that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction? So...as the cam opens up, there is a split second where it bounces back in.
For the lobes to bounce back, the rock would have to push back with a Greater force than the lobes are pressing out. The rock is, conventionally, non-mobile; this will not happen. The only way for the lobes to spring back like you suggest is if they were slapped against the rock hard enough to bounce off like a tennis ball off the ground. This, however, is an impossible situation. Since the lobes start on the rock, they won't bounce off the rock.
In a falling scenario, the outward force due to the springs is negligable when contrasted to the outward force due to the rotation of the lobes. The spring will not have any effect on the cam during a fall. They merely hold the cam in place until The cam is fallen on. During a fall (or similarly while weighted) there is so much force due to camming mechanics that the springs are not even remotely significant to the system.
In reply to: I'm not making this up either, you can do the research and look it up and see that it is true.
In reply to: Also the double axle design is good because it can be placed as passive pro. However, it also allows the cam to walk.
Most cams also walk. The BD design in more conducive to walking, but any cam will walk. If your BD cam is walking, it is more because you didn't extend the placement with a sling. This shouldn't be that much of a problem in real-world practice. It happens, but is very preventable.
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chico
Oct 6, 2004, 5:30 PM
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To all the people who felt it their duty to rip me a new one, thanks! I needed that. Now, please check out the web address: http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/frames.html read about cams, and bite me. Like I said-not making it up. Granted I've never(and likely will never) stress a cam in such ways that will cause cam bounce, but it is a real thing, and something to be aware of when buying cams...thats all. I've used BD for a long time...not any more. I've gone to CHC Aliens, Metolius Power Cams, and Wild Country Tech Frends, so yippie for me. So lastly, in my fleabitten opinion...no, the new BD cams are probably not worth it.
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mingleefu
Oct 6, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: To all the people who felt it their duty to rip me a new one, thanks! I needed that. Now, please check out the web address: and bite me. I told you I wasn't making it up. Granted I've never(and likely will never) stress a cam in such ways that will cause cam bounce, but it is a real thing, and something to be aware of when buying cams...thats all.
That URL is all jazzed up, bro. did you mean http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/frames.html? Even still, it doesn't lead me to anything about "cam bounce" (because of the way the frames work...). I searched around the WC page, and could find only reference to "cam bounce" in the cams desicription, without mention to what it really is.
In reply to: WC webpage (click on "Cams")"]Perfectly Balanced springs, carefully tested to resist "cam bounce" and "walking", help seat the cam on gritty or lichenous surfaces.
The Wild Country Cam Book does not have the word "bounce" in it, per a search. I did not read the whole thing.
The Wild Country Catalogue mentions "cam bounce", but only in the same capacity as the webpage does.
A google search turned up that Clog Cam tosses around that phrase in a similar way
In reply to: Clog Cam Description"]Clog springs are rigorously selected and tested to resist cam ’bounce’ and to help the cams seat on gritty or lichenous surfaces and to minimise ’walking’
A google search for "cam bounce", "climbing cam bounce", "climbing 'cam bounce'", and "climbing 'cam bounce' defined"
If you could please cite your source for the following, I'd be willing to read into it.
In reply to: They are smooth because they have weaker springs than some other cams out there. This means that in the event of a fall they have a lower pull out strength. Remember that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction? So...as the cam opens up, there is a split second where it bounces back in. The stronger the spring, the less in bounces back, the weaker the spring the more it bounces back. |
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epic_ed
Oct 6, 2004, 6:27 PM
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That's a bunch of marketing blather, dude. Please, site me one real world example of an instance of "cam bounce" causing a placement to fail. Anecdotal BS from the manufacturers website doesn't count unless it's backed up by emperical data -- research, in other words. Site the research. You are the first and only person I've ever heard who has concerns about the spring tension in BDs cams. Not even the WC website is making that claim. Did you just pull that out of your ass?
Ed
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