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atg200
Oct 5, 2004, 11:31 PM
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how many other routes in the desert have you done? my guess is probably none. the bolts on the corkscrew are pretty good as far as desert bolts go. put on a screamer, yard on it, and you are through.
i'm not a hot shot free climber and i'm also not particularly bold - i start yarding around 5.9 and i'm famous for screaming when i fall. however, i think ancient art is definitely one of the easiest and safest of the 20 towers i have climbed. there is no way you could possibly fall off before the corkscrew if you have any business leading that pitch. it is intimidating, but the climbing is easy and secure and the stance at the top of P3 is secure and bomber by desert standards.
this is not the sport park - it is the desert. it is ok to get bouted, everyone does out here sometimes - i've bailed off of a couple of different towers over the years when i didn't have the sack to do them. however, it is really silly to complain about how scary and dangerous a moderate trade route is and then get offended when a bunch of folks who have done the route disagree with you.
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atg200
Oct 5, 2004, 11:33 PM
Post #27 of 102
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In reply to: I wonder why there's no retrobolting effort on that thing.
are you serious? a retrobolt wouldn't last longer than a day or two on that tower, and whoever did it would get laughed out of town.
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megableem
Oct 5, 2004, 11:36 PM
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petsfed
Oct 5, 2004, 11:41 PM
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And regarding your proposal:
Run the last two pitches together. Makes for coming back down a little scary, but you're not in any real danger. As far as adding more bolts, do you suppose that will make it safer? Did you not look at the bolts at the top of the second pitch (which desperately needed a couch, btw)? Bolts suck in that mud. More bolts won't make you safer. A keen understanding of your own limits will.
You weren't up to the climb. Pure and simple. Don't bring it down to your level. After all, you may have been pretty sketched on the last two pitches, my second was more sketched in the chimney (where the rock is awful) than on the Cork Screw.
To be more explicit, would you have us retrobolt Perilous Journey (on the Mickey Mouse Wall outside of Eldorado Canyon) just so you can feel comfortable on it? Do you want more bolts on Supercrack? Tell you what. You wean yourself off grid bolting, get used to scary, "I might die" climbing, then come and suggest that a classic that is now free soloed (up and down) be retro bolted.
k?
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thegreytradster
Oct 5, 2004, 11:41 PM
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With all the whining this one sounds to good to pass up! :lol: It's on my tic list now! when's the best season?
You've wakened the intrest of the geriatric crowd, and the name fits!
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petsfed
Oct 5, 2004, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: With all the whining this one sounds to good to pass up! :lol: It's on my tic list now! when's the best season? You've wakened the intrest of the geriatric crowd, and the name fits!
We hit the third weekend in April. 80 degrees and nobody climbing on it. It was great.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 6, 2004, 12:30 AM
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It is pretty freaking cool 8^) we hung out on the ledge above the chimny and waited for the party ahead of us to top out and come back down. My buddy burned one while we were waiting. the guys after us were drinking whisky (hung over hard men from montana) and the party behind them was totaly freaked out by all the substance abuse 8^) It was a reguler circus. It was a sat. in may though so prime time. Would love to do it mid week off season 8^)
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coldclimb
Oct 6, 2004, 12:36 AM
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I've seen rusted 1/4 inch buttonheads that held a 35 foot fall. One can't really just look at fixed pro and say whether it will hold a fall or not. The only real test is to fall on it, and even then you can't say that it will hold another. ;)
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grayhghost
Oct 6, 2004, 1:05 AM
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This has got to be a troll.
But if it is not here goes. . . .
YOU THINK TOO MUCH!
for god's sake just climb the bloody thing, its
about ten times safer than the Kor-Inglles on
Castleton.
As for all who are interested, I am up as a
guide anytime, I love this climb, done it four
times now but have yet to walk the whole
sidewalk, I tried twice but ended up "cow-boy-ing"
across, and when you stand on the summit
the whole world spins around you. . . very trippy.
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areyoumydude
Oct 6, 2004, 1:53 AM
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Maybe you should take up bowling. Besides Owl rock that is the easiest tower in the desert. You can make all the excuses in the world, but just face it you don't belong in the desert.
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joshklingbeil
Oct 6, 2004, 2:51 AM
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he should go hangdog at mill creek.
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ambler
Oct 6, 2004, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: Maybe you should take up bowling. Besides Owl rock that is the easiest tower in the desert. You can make all the excuses in the world, but just face it you don't belong in the desert. |
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slab-dyno
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Oct 6, 2004, 2:55 AM
Post #39 of 102
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I climbed it this summer in July. We got a super early start, and finished up just before the sun began to approach the wall.
It was an awsome route in an amazing setting - we were the only people in the towers, minus one hiker. I think that the pro was pretty good, and the climbing was fairly casual. The crux comes about 15 feet up on the first pitch, and that's very well protected. The only section that didn't have pro or bolts nearby was the chimney, but that was piss easy- even for this east coast momma's boy. I really enjoyed getting to the belay after the chimney and seeing a rotted out drilled angle, and a spinner hanger if I remember correctly. The only questionable part of the route is the rock quality, which seemed pretty good compared to the other choss we walked by. I led the chimney and the corkscrew, and I must say that the corkscrew is one of the most memorable pitches I have ever led.
I would highly recomend the route for anyone who's looking for a good first desert tower.
Jimmy
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on_sight_man
Oct 6, 2004, 3:55 AM
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You want scary? My partner led the chimney pitch and was told to "go out right" at the top. She did, but WAY too early and ended up sketching it out on unclimbed 5.10+ kitty litter 20 feet above her last piece. I almost threw up when I saw what she had done.
Sometimes you just have to sac up or go home.
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basejump
Oct 6, 2004, 4:59 AM
Post #41 of 102
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In reply to: he should go hangdog at mill creek. In reply to: Maybe you should take up bowling
I think the above sort of banter is totally useless and infantile - what does it do for us as a climbing community to resort to insults in favor of meaningful feedback or discussion? Come on guys, where's the love? Nistrong may have chickened out from this so called "easy" climb - but what gives? Are you folks more badass after flaunting around on the internet how ballsy you think you are?
I've got quite a bit of experience in scary situations whether they be a 2000' tall unprotected windy antenna we have to jump off of to save ourselves, or a really rotton mud chimney in the desert, and what I think is happening here is a pissing contest. My ego and ball sack are bigger than yours type of thing. I think this is unfortunate.
It's interesting to compare this discussion to my other hobby (BASE jumping). If 15 stranger BASE jumpers showed up at a cliff at the same time, we'd all be instant comrades if not friends. We would support one another and encourage eachother to succeed in what each desired. I've seen plenty of instances where a jumper chickened out and climbed down and when all others jumped. That jumper was never criticized out fear and respect for the unknown powers of what we deem "Black Death" (the factors you can never control or even fathom that kill us randomly). Who are we to assume that jumper would have made it had he or she proceeded along with us who jumped? I've also been the chicken before and was never poked fun of or harrassed like this.
I love climbing, and a huge portion of my craze is getting scared - just like jumping off stuff - but sometimes you just freak out - maybe it's illogical or totally inapropriate, but how do you ever know if you made the right choice? How are you to know if nistrong would have made it without falling - or if those anchors would have held his party's fall? Have you tested them? Sh-t changes, in the desert especially - maybe Black Death has a play in things and maybe instincts are what saves people!
What I wish for, is that instead of 15 climbers showing up and being pissed at one another for clogging the route, or making fun of those who opt out for safety's sake... that we have some respect for the the other people in our sport who have just as much right to a good time on a route as ourselves - and to support each other's decisions in terms of safety and instincts. If the good mojo is missing for someone sometime, they're not necessarily to blame! :evil:
--------------
Back on topic:
I think that what nistrong is suggesting would be in fact, in terms of the physics of a fall, be safer. The more rope you've got out, the more energy will be absorbed and the less risk of ripping the anchors out of the mud. While running together the last two pitches may not be necessary to all, it would be safer in terms of physics - at least that's my opinion.
As far as the balls are concerned - I'm sure we can all think of situations where we could use some more, up until the point that they kill us!
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petsfed
Oct 6, 2004, 5:12 AM
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I just went back and reread nistrong's proposal.
I'm a frickin' idiot. I'm sorry. I misread you and said some things that in hindsight were pretty stupid. I'll leave them up, but I can only presume that people will make it this far and read my retraction.
The safer (and more convenient) way to do this is to run the last two pitches together as one. Coming back down (like I said) is ... interesting and almost requires three people. Use your judgement. No shame in bailing, even 30 feet from the summit.
I still don't think retrobolting is necessary, but I've said my peace on that subject.
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ambler
Oct 6, 2004, 11:19 AM
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In reply to: What I wish for, is that instead of 15 climbers showing up and being pissed at one another for clogging the route, or making fun of those who opt out for safety's sake... :evil:
In reply to: The exposure scares the hell out of me. But that's not all. The pro doesn't help. I wonder why there's no retrobolting effort on that thing. |
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leinosaur
Oct 6, 2004, 1:30 PM
Post #44 of 102
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In reply to: I've seen rusted 1/4 inch buttonheads that held a 35 foot fall. One can't really just look at fixed pro and say whether it will hold a fall or not. The only real test is to fall on it, and even then you can't say that it will hold another. ;)
Not that all old gear's good, but the fact that it's still there means it's held whatever's been asked of it, right?
Looking forward to some desert climbs - lived in AZ as a kid but didn't climb 'til OK (which rocks too, by the way!)
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 6, 2004, 1:34 PM
Post #45 of 102
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Anyone who crys poor me when they get flamed on the internet for posting somthing whimpy (like sugesting retrobolting) simply does not understand the nature of these boards. A major attraction in a preverse kind of way is the fact that you can argue away, use provocative language and generaly have fun bashing each others heads with the keyboard :twisted: with no real consequences. 99% of us are perfectly nice people when we meet up at the crags 8^) So basejump joins the fray by proclaiming how BRAVE he is for jumping off towers and then scolds us for haveing a bit of fun with a guy that got spanked and then cried about it :roll:
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basejump
Oct 6, 2004, 3:22 PM
Post #46 of 102
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In reply to: So basejump joins the fray by proclaiming how BRAVE he is for jumping off towers and then scolds us for haveing a bit of fun with a guy that got spanked and then cried about it :roll:
I never said I was brave I said I've had experience in scary situations. I never tried to prove anything about the guts it takes to jump or whatever - all of that is I suppose assumed by the reader. I'm a in fact, a big pussy most of the time, and can't stop shaking after a jump - but that's why I jump... to overcome my fears. Isn't being scared a big portion of what climbing is about too? If so, why bash with your keyboard someon0e who admitted to be too scared to finish a climb sketchy or not? Maybe it wasn't the right combination for his head game for what ever reason - there's no way to know.
My whole point about base jumping was that as a community of jumpers, we tend to support one another for making personal decisions, and that I wish climbers were more like a family too - I was not trying to grandstand myself.
One of the reasons I support nistrong's proposed method of topping out is because I also don't want to see 25 bad bolts (any bolt in sandstone is a bad bolt if you ask me) on that anchor - they are what they are, and yes - they seem pretty solid for a mud tower (at least one of them) - so I think running the pitches together makes it safer without pulling out your bolt kit.
If someone was to decide the right move is to place a new bolt there - it should be discussed with the locals and then they should be sure to put it in place of the spinning button-head and not the pitons that are 4" out! Those are pretty awesome because they show the power of the wind and the whimpyness of the rock - the fact they're still there, contributes to the desert experience!
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joe
Oct 6, 2004, 3:39 PM
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nothing to read here.
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atg200
Oct 6, 2004, 4:55 PM
Post #48 of 102
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Adding bolts to Ancient Art just isn't going to happen. The locals will have a field day with anyone who proposes it. Hell, the locals slander people who put in more bolts than they like on first ascents. I'll keep my crowbar next to the door and my gas tank full just in case someone decides to add some bolts - I could use some new hangers.
"Go to the top boys, no more bolts!"
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takeme
Oct 6, 2004, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: he should go hangdog at mill creek. In reply to: Maybe you should take up bowling I think the above sort of banter is totally useless and infantile - what does it do for us as a climbing community to resort to insults in favor of meaningful feedback or discussion? Come on guys, where's the love? Nistrong may have chickened out from this so called "easy" climb - but what gives? Are you folks more badass after flaunting around on the internet how ballsy you think you are? I've got quite a bit of experience in scary situations whether they be a 2000' tall unprotected windy antenna we have to jump off of to save ourselves, or a really rotton mud chimney in the desert, and what I think is happening here is a pissing contest. My ego and ball sack are bigger than yours type of thing. I think this is unfortunate.
You've got it wrong. People are jumping all over this guy not because he backed off the climb (we've all backed off climbs), but because he won't stop indignantly whining about it. This has got to be the most climbed tower route in the desert, with a dozens of ascents per week, in season--beginners get dragged up it all the time. I don't think anyone posting here thinks that doing this route has made them "ballsy" or "badass". By desert standards, it's mellow, safe, and a trade route--it's that simple. Also, there's a sort of implication in his posts that the rest of us (and there's a lot of us!) are somehow stupid or reckless for having climbed the pitch--that seems to have gotten folks' dander up. Most of the ego I see is coming from him.
As far as linking the pitches, I think it's a silly idea. Anyone who would "need" to do it for the reasons stated above is likely to be far more terrified on the corkscrew in this scenario, working with massive rope drag while out of sight of his belayer. Anyway even if someone did fall off the sidewalk, that 4-bolt anchor is not gonna pull out.
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takeme
Oct 6, 2004, 5:01 PM
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p.s. as far as the move off the Diving Board--you can clip three pins/bolts (2 are an anchor just above the diving board), plus tie off the board, plus aid off the pin if you want. A factor-2 fall on the anchor is just not a concern at this point!
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