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sweetpea
Oct 6, 2004, 5:58 PM
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hi, I have lurked in here awhile. I enjoy the responses people have posted and respect all of you opinions. I didn't know where else to ask this question. Please read--sorry this is long :oops:
I have been climbing for technically about five years. In the beginning I was content toproping. I enjoyed being outside and hanging out with my friends. I always wanted to lead and climb harder but I was never obsessive or crazily motivated. Within the last year and a half I have commited to being a more fit and strong individual and that included kicking my climbing ability up some. I was becoming more confident in my ability and in my body. Last fall I started to lead. Mostly sport but also some trad. I have lived in Yosemite and have traveled to and climbed in many different states with my partner. I can lead sport around 5.9 and on some climbs up to 5.10.
Last fall, this girl, we'll call her Beth, started to come out climbing with my circle of climbing people. I was so excited---I am usually the only girl. We hit it off ----mostly because we were the only girls.
Beth and I are both in our twenties but she is five years younger than me. Lately she has progressed in sport climbing so rapidly, I am shocked. At first it was awesome---we would all go out and climb our brains out. Now it is different and here's why:
Whenever her and I talk lately, all she can talk about is what she climbed and how hard it was. She rarely asks about me and my life. I basically have turned into her sounding board. I do not need to toot my horn like that. All she talks about is the NUMBERS---how she is leading 5.11---what she will lead, etc. I feel like she talksdown to me or is competeing against me in some weird way. Now I fully admit that I am in a small way jealous/envious of her quick progression but I DO NOT wish to be like her. She talks down to me and makes me feel bad. Some competition in life is healthy, but I feel like I have been placed in this competition with her as an unwilling participant.
The problem is that all of this is affecting MY climbing. Now I think whether Beth has lead something and put the pressure on myself that I should lead it too. OR last weekend, my partner, Beth and her partner all lead this great but pumpy climb and I was barely able to toprope it. I felt left out---like they are all part of something I'm not. I mentally beat myself about it---Why aren't I stronger, Why don't I climb better?
I have read the Warrior's Way, but obvoisly need to read it again. Why can't I be happy with my slow progression? Why do I just compare myself to her and feel bad about myself? It seems to me a self eesteem issue and I don't know how to help myself. I do not think she is PURPOSEFULLY trying to make me feel bad when she talks about herself---that is just her personality. How do I recapture the FUN of climbing and not take it so seriuosly. Climbing has felt more like work lately---I HAVE to climb this etc.
Any thoughts or ideas?
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crazygirl
Oct 6, 2004, 7:09 PM
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here are my thoughts:
the mature thing to do is probably to have a conversation with Beth about this. Maybe tell her that it bothers you that she doesn't ask you anything about yourself.
she might just be excited about her climbing, and not tryng to put you down.
on the other hand, whenever i catch myself sounding like Beth, i quickly tell myself to shut up. she should do the same.
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changling
Oct 6, 2004, 7:31 PM
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I have friends like that outside of climbing. If they are better than me at something, they won't shut up about it and just yap and yap and yap about how they were better than me. I tend to shut my brain off when they do, and eventually, they stop. No point in bragging if no one is listening, right?
As for enjoying climbing again, I sorta understand how you feel. I've been climbing for over 4 years, and I suck when it comes to grades. I often feel bad about it because I see other people (at the gym) that would have climbed for only a few months, and they are already stronger than me. This is largely my fault because I don't climb regularly, and I give up easily, and I beat myself up about that. But of course, climbing isn't as fun anymore. It feels more like work than anything else.
So when this happens, I remind myself why I climb. I might not be a strong climber, but I've done more climbing than most people I know when it comes to experience. Sure, these people can pull hard, but they have never experienced the freedom of being on a multipitch trad route, or the beauty of climbing a frozen gully in a winter wonderland. When I hear these people talking about the hard routes they have done, I don't feel bad anymore because I know that what they are looking for is completely different from what I look for in climbing. They are happy with the grades they do. I couldn't care less about grades. They are getting what they are looking for by pushing grades, and I would never get what I look for by doing the same. I still try to motivate myself to climb harder, but for different reasons than the other people I meet.
So just remind yourself what it is you are looking for, and focus on getting that. Don't let others sway you to think differently. Mark Twight once wrote:
"A climb can only be understood truthfully by the participant. Commitment and difficulty can only be judged by the experiencer - the numbers and rating mean nothing. [..] You may believe, "If you haven't reached the top, you haven't climbed a mountain." I say again and again that I don't care what I climb, only how it affects me. [..] Man is glorious when he struggles towards his goals and finds himself, not in the end result, but in the fight itself." (From "The Struggle")
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kimmyt
Oct 6, 2004, 7:38 PM
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Maybe this girl is a situational friend. That is, a person who you wouldn't be friends with otherwise, but your similar interests (and the fact that you were the only women in your climbing group) pushed you together. So now you're beginning to notice that perhaps she's not the best person, or that you two are not compatible.
I agree in that you should bring up these feelings to the girl. If things don't change, then perhaps you need to think about whether this friendship has any positive benefits anymore.
K.
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sweetpea
Oct 6, 2004, 10:05 PM
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Thank you for your responses.
I do think that Beth gets REALLY excited about her climbing and wants to talk about it all to another climber. She honestly means no real harm. I am not sure if I am comforatble talking about these feelings with her. I am afraid she would take it personally and not really understand where I am coming from. I also feel like this is MY problem---my self esteem, my self worth problem and I need to work this out for me.
I do think she is more of a situational friend and I have been reluctant to want to downgrade our friendship because she is another girl that climbs and around here that is a rarity.
I am trying to feel good about my climbing and I can't compare myself to other people to do that. I will try to remember all the great reasons I do get up and go climbing :)
Thank you for listening and helping me work through this,
K
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maculated
Oct 7, 2004, 12:02 AM
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Sweetpea, I find it very encouraging how in touch you are with your motivations. Few people really know what's making them behave a certain way, and your experience is viable and frequent.
If Beth is affecting your climbing negatively, don't hang around with her, woman or not. It's my philosophy that people who affect you negatively are not worth your time. You can't change an individual and if you don't work well with them, it's not worth the affect on you. Fine supportive people who make climbing fun, or you're heading for a burnout.
Honestly, the best, most supportive, and most helpful climbers have been men. Don't choose women if they aren't the above just because they are women.
Good luck. :)
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positivethoughts
Oct 8, 2004, 4:11 AM
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Registered: Aug 26, 2003
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Sweetpea,
This happened to me too many long years ago - almost exactly the way you described it. In my case, the other woman was about my height, similar strength, and we'd progressed at a similar rate up to that point. We worked a lot of projects together. It was awesome. Then for a while she was stronger than I was. Our friends' encouragement "Oh, she did it, you have to be able to do it too" would just make me feel that much worse when I couldn't.
My solution was to just back off climbing with her quite so much. I stayed off her projects for a while and found my own things that I wanted to climb - switching often so that I was often trying new stuff that couldn't be compared against her performance. I'd give her a belay on her thing, and then ask for a belay on something totally different.
I also asked our friends for help in comparing my climbing to hers less. They stopped making those comments that I mentioned, and were really supportive of my 'no today I think I'm going to do THIS instead' tactics. I have awesome friends. I talked to my friend about it too - and she seemed a little shocked and maybe taken aback at first, but she's a friend of mine, and once she realized I was having trouble, wanted to help. Like you, I recognized that it was MY issue, not HERS, and framing it that way maybe made it easier for her to take.
All this happened maybe 10 years or so ago now, and we are all still really good friends. As the years have passed we've gone in different directions and spread out all over the country. Some of those people are still into climbing, others have moved on to focusing more on triathalons, or child-rearing, or whatever, but it is still really fun to get together to climb, hike, bike or just hang out and see what everyone has been up to. We got to know each other because we were all into climbing, but friendships extend way beyond that, perspective changes, and then it REALLY doesn't matter who climbs better.
T
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sweetpea
Oct 8, 2004, 2:44 PM
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On Wednesday, Beth came into my office up at school for her usual weekly chat of what she got on this weekend. It was different this time because her and her partner went on a mini roadtrip this weekend and all this craziness occurred. We were both able to talk about our feelings about climbing and I became more comfortable. I am willing to accept her for who she is and while we don't have to be "the best of friends", I can enjoy seeing her out climbing and getting on stuff together. Because she can climb harder does not make her "better" than me-----we are not defined by our climbing ability------that is a hard one in practice but is really true.
I love going climbing because it forces me to learn more about myself on a deep level every time. I would rather be frustrated on the rock than binge drinking all weekend like most people in this college town.
Going climbing this weekend, and hopefully I will recapture the fun and peace on the rock :lol:
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kimmyt
Oct 8, 2004, 3:04 PM
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In reply to: Because she can climb harder does not make her "better" than me-----we are not defined by our climbing ability------that is a hard one in practice but is really true.
What a great, and true, statement. It's so hard at times when surrounded by other climbers who are competitive with themselves and others to remember that just because I may not climb as hard as them, does not mean I have any less right to be on and enjoy the rock.
I'm really glad you got to talk to Beth about things, and thanks for the insightful posts.
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winter
Oct 8, 2004, 5:47 PM
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Registered: Apr 9, 2003
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Wow. Really good posts everyone.
Kimmy, I especially liked your 'situational friend' comment. It is so true, and sometimes we forget about the inception of a friendship and why we are friends with someone.
Sweatpea, I totally understand your situation and think it is very common. I struggle every day with the fact that I am not leading at my level. I also struggle with the fact that I am alienated from most of the local climbing community because of it.
Because of this, aside from my regular climbing partner, I do not hang out with other climbers. The people I train with at the gym in the winter I would never climb with during the summer. I find that the climbing community here is very competitive, all about the numbers and overall not very nice. It's like the cliques of girls in elementary school; you think you go the right clothes but somehow they still dont' invite you to their birthday parties. If I am not leading what I'm toproping I am not good enough to climb with them. If I cannot climb 11's all day, they won't climb with me.
So, I guess I don't have any advice except don't hang with people who make you feel bad, it's just not worth it. I may be a bit of a loner in that I always climb with the same 2 or 3 people, but most others make me feel bad and I don't need that. There are things that we shouldn't let bother us, but they just do, we can't help it. Go with your gut, either talk to Beth about how she makes you feel, or stop hanging out with her.
One thing I've found refreshing is that I take my real non-climbing friends climbing. It is so much more fun than going with climbers. I lead stuff, they climb it, we have fun and there are no expectations.
Good luck. Be proud of where you are.
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