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bensnyder
Oct 20, 2004, 8:57 PM
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In most of the rock gyms that i've climbed at, the problems seem to be kind of ovverrated. Not just one or two, but most of them and by at least a V grade. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a number chaser, but the grades of problems give me an idea as to how I am improving, so the indiscrepancies in the gym ratings are kind of annoying. Does anybody know why they do this (overrate climbs) and has anybody had the same experience? All i know is that some of my first (and in retrospect most discouraging) memories of climbing were of sending a V5 problem in the gym only to flail on V3s and V2s on real rock the week after.
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alderak
Oct 20, 2004, 9:13 PM
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could be they want you to feel good about your climbing in their gym and thus come back(making them more $$)... could be they have never climbed a graded, rock boulder problem(and as such can't grade their own reliably)... could be that you haven't climbed rock boulder problems(if so, you'll get better as you learn to "read" the rock)...
I for one haven't bouldered enough on reliably graded problems to even try to rate anything I put up in a gym.. so I just leave them blank.
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alwaysforward
Oct 20, 2004, 9:16 PM
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Don't forget to take into account the massive difference between climbing tape and plastic to boldering. It's a different ball game and you'll be better in the gym if that's where your most time has been spent.
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neuroshock
Oct 20, 2004, 9:20 PM
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sometimes it depends on where you are. even if you're solid at a grade, going to an environment with any differences (outdoors versus indoors, rock type, angle of climb, types of holds, altitude of climb, temperature of rock, the humidity, temperature of air, what you had for breakfast, etc.) can be a challenge.
i've run up some V4's like they were V0's...i've also gotten my ass handed back to me by some V2's **shrug**
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bensnyder
Oct 20, 2004, 9:22 PM
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In reply to: could be that you haven't climbed rock boulder problems(if so, you'll get better as you learn to "read" the rock)...
Yeah, I thought I was having trouble reading the rock back when i started climbing, but now that i have a little more experience and can read rock reasonably well i still find that most gym problems i climb feel overrated...that is a really good point though there are def ppl I know who have trouble outside because they cant read sequences because theyre used to looking for tape and brightly colored holds...
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robmcc
Oct 20, 2004, 9:25 PM
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Ever hear of vanity sizing in clothing?
Rob
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slavetogravity
Oct 20, 2004, 9:28 PM
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Here in Victoria BC, Canada I'm lucky if I can top out on a 5.10c in the gym. But outside I can consistently onsight or at least get up 5.11a. Here they don’t' even bother to rate their boulder problems. I think their logic is that because climbing outside has more factors that make the climbing difficult. (no tape etc.) It makes it easy for a gym climber who can consistently climb 5.10 inside climb 5.10 outside.
So I guess if you need to a humbling gym climbing experience come to Victoria.
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antigrav
Oct 20, 2004, 9:31 PM
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I actually wonder more about why it seems to be the other way around for me... Maybe it's just my local gym, I dunno...
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antigrav
Oct 20, 2004, 9:32 PM
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Ok, so I'm not the only one, hehe....
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jpearl
Oct 20, 2004, 9:37 PM
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With the exception of indoor routes set by very knowledgable routesetters who have thourough outdoors experience, I tend not to take into account gym ratings. I leave the V ratings and the Yosemite ratings for the outdoor routes (each of course reletaive to the actual crags or boulders) and instead think of indoor routes as simply being "easy", "more difficult", "hard", "harder", etc...
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treyfrancisclimbs
Oct 20, 2004, 9:55 PM
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i just killed 2 V4's last night at the gym, which brings my total there ti about 5. i have been able to do most of the V3's there, and i find that it correlates pretty well with my outdoor ability. i have done a few V4's outside, and almost every 3 i have tried. of course, there have been a few 2's at the gym that worked me, as well as outdoors (LCC). i think it depends on the gym and the setter
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boulderqt
Oct 20, 2004, 10:26 PM
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In reply to: I actually wonder more about why it seems to be the other way around for me... Maybe it's just my local gym, I dunno...
That's what i was thinking....
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chronicle
Oct 20, 2004, 10:39 PM
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My old gym was like that. They said it was to make people feel better, like they are improving, etc. The gym I'm at now rates their routes similar to Gunks and Seneca ratings. The owner there has been climbing for quite sometime, and came to the conclussion that he didn't want people going outdoors thinking they could send a 5.10 and end up getting in trouble.
I think it depends on the gym, the setter, and how much experience they have.
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jdouble
Oct 20, 2004, 11:08 PM
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IMHO you can't accurately/exactly compare ratings from one area to the next, one gym to the next, or for that matter from indoor to outdoor. Other than 'this place seems stiff, this place seems soft', you can't be too precise.
What you can do is hope/complain about consistency WITHIN the gym/outdoor area you happen to find yourself visiting. I agree with the posts about the 'vanity grades'. It's all about ego, baby.
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spikeyhair13
Oct 20, 2004, 11:40 PM
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To me it is the opposite. When i am outside it seems alot harder than in the gym. Although I have only been outside three times it still seems harder outside.
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h0wl3r
Oct 21, 2004, 2:22 AM
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i say who cares about the grading system, just go out and climb have fun at it unless you're going pro
i personally like the features of a route not the difficulty, an interesting start, a huge dyno, whatever floats ur boat
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taraus_de_bull
Oct 21, 2004, 2:54 AM
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its extremely hard to grade indoor vs. outdoor. there is just way too many differences. also, gym ratings usely variey gym to gym, do to style and how the particular gym feels as difficults. i've set at two gyms and climb a lot outdoors, and every time i finish setting, try to guess at a grade. keep in mind, indoor grades mostly are of physical strength. the routes are easy to read because of tape. outside, there's not tape, and often very hard to see holds, even if its just a few feet above you. in a gym, you start to memorize holds and how to hold them. outdoor grades have alot more involved then just physical strength.
also, some peopel grade onsight and some grade redpoint, it makes a huge difference which style they use.
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rckclimr
Oct 21, 2004, 2:57 AM
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I think the most important thing is that all problems at a given gym (or area) are a similar difficulty for their rating. The nearest real rock to us is DL WI, so we try to keep ratings close to those (some would call them sandbagged...)
Anyway, in the gym, as long as all V2 = V2 and V7 = V7 whats the difference?
You can still judge your improvement, just don't compare it to other areas.
Make any sense...?
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tnchief
Oct 21, 2004, 3:04 AM
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I believe the opposite to be true (more consistently true, at least). The descrepancy is not limited to bouldering, or even to gym vs. real rock. I have learned over the past twelve years not to put much stock in grades. I might OS a 11a and then flail on 10b right next to it put up (and graded) by the same climber. Grades are extremely subjective, and should be used only as a guide to the relative difficulty. Instead of worrying about numbers, you should focus on how difficult it was for you, whether you gave it your all, and if it made you a better or happier climber. I climb for fun, not numbers.
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j_dub
Oct 21, 2004, 11:27 AM
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I was climbing outside over the weekend with the general manager of our local gym, wondering out loud how it was that the 10c I'd toproped the day before seemed significantly easier than a 10 at the gym. I was going to attribute it to the rock being sharp and having better friction, or an infinite variety of footholds, etc... He said that the gym was sandbagged almost a full grade. This would explain why I thought the 10a outside seemed like an 8+/9. Gah! I'd much rather have the gym sandbag, though... it's cool to go outside and actually be able to climb stuff. :)
Either that or the grades at the Red (KY) are soft (quite possible - I have no idea).
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peroxide
Oct 21, 2004, 1:27 PM
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It could be my imagination but I find that the more often the area around the gym is rainy, the more likely the grades will be hard.
SUNNY = SOFT GRADES (LA, Houston, SF)
RAINY = HARD GRADES (portland, seattle, the whole of UK except London)
Here is my satirical formula for gym grades (i had PMs asking me to explain it to some people because they thought it was for real).
THE MASTER FORMULA FOR CONVERTING GYM RATINGS TO THE OUTDOORS
While travelling I have developed a formula that will convert gym grades to outdoor grades. This is a perfect equation so don't go thinking I am trying to be funny. Just trying to help noobies:
IGG = Indoor gym grade
OG = Outdoor grade
IGG
-(miles to nearest crag/100)
-(ratio of Prana or Prada / 2 * nasty old gray tshirt)
+(# of VW vans in parking lot / 3)
- (# of gyms in city / 4)
- (3 grades if you can get a facial or pedicure on the premises)
+ (1 grade if there is a group of climbers who smoke out the fire exit)
= OG
So if I am Houston back in 2001 when they had 3 gyms the formula looks like this
IGG
-(120/100)
-(3/ 2 * 2)
+(1/ 3)
- (3 / 4)
- (3 grades if you can get a facial or pedicure on the premises)
+ (1 grade if there is a group of climbers who smoke out the fire exit)
= OG
- 1.2 - .75 + .33 - .75- 0 + 1 = -1. 4
So a 5.8 indoors is like a harder 5.6
Above 5.9, each 2 letters equal one grade.
So a 5.11c indoors is a 5.10d outdoors.
Rock on
Peroxide
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subtle
Oct 21, 2004, 1:39 PM
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In my relatively modest experience, there are a couple of factors that could push it either way:
The feet outside are usually much worse than the jibs at the gym. A 'good foot' is frequently 1/4 the size, which is fairly difficult until you get used to it.
The holds outside are non-standard in the extreme. Even at a good gym that sets well and rotates the holds frequently, you're still going to 'learn' how to hit various edges, slopers, etc. Outside, they're all different. Also, what you have to work with might not really be all that comfortable, either very sharp or covered in chalk or bird crap.
Your style will come into play quite heavily, as well. In the gym you tend to gravitate to what you like/are good at. Outside, you climb what's there.
It depends who set/rated the thing in the first place. I love when V10 climbers throw up 'an easy V1-' which is later revised to V4 when more people get on it. The opposite is even funnier, of course. "It's V4!...oh, you did it in your sneakers...ok...it's V1".
The other side of the coin is, and this completely depends on your gym's philosophy, not all routes are created equal. I may be wrong about this (and will certainly be corrected if I am), but I beleive the convention is to rate a route relative to the difficulty of the crux move, wherever that may be. So, a bunch of easy jug hauling with a 5.11a crux is could be rated exactly the same as a route with most of the moves being near 5.11a. I've heard this being referred to as how 'sustained' or 'continuous' the effort on the route is...but the bottom line is, in a manufactured environment you can make every move hard, if you so desire, but outside you sort of have to climb what you're given.
Then there are gyms that just mis-grade, out of ignorance or policy. My old gym changed wall managers recently, and his first action was to knock everything down a grade, which generally reflected 'outside' ratings.
For what it's worth.
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get_ur_rox_off
Oct 27, 2004, 5:52 PM
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The routes are set by humans, rated by humans. There is an inevitable subjectiveness to this process. Also if you climb the same gym all the time, you get conditioned to a certain type of climb. As a setter, unless you have a great deal of climbing experience, you'll continuously set the same style of routes. As a climber, you get condition to this style and only get better at that style. Best thing to do is climb different rock and at different gyms to truly develop your technique.
Another problem is that different gyms have different "philosophies" on grading or route setting like others have mentioned in this thread. Either trying to make their members feel good about their climbing or conversely to make them work harder.
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jebel_andi
Oct 27, 2004, 6:24 PM
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I think it totaly depends on the gym, i climbed at a gym that was all bouldering and they rated there climbs as easy,medium or hard I liked that a lot for bouldeering but I would like some sort of understanding of the difficulty of roped climbs. I hate to just hang there frustrated. the gym i climb at now (allez up in montreal) has the crasiest grades, I onsite 5.10 no probs and I am strugling with the 5.8's here, I don't care I am not chasing numbers but I was a little embarresed when I first climbed there and couldn't do a 5.9 with out falling. I think it would be a good idea if gyms created there own grade system so you can judge your own improvement with out comparing yourself to the people in mags and feeling like poo. Any way I am new to gym climbing so my opinion is probably not the most valid.
P.S. Any one know the conversion from allez up grades to outdoor grades? just out of curiosity.
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