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discolegsyndrome
Oct 25, 2004, 6:34 PM
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Hi,
I could have sworn I saw a thread that covered this topic before but for the life of me I can't find it. I tried a site search and a forums search and I couldn't find it. I also tried scouring the gear and alpine & ice forums manually. I got bored when I started hitting posts from 2002. So i'm sorry if this has been done to death... could someone give me a link to the previous threads? If not.. well.. here goes my question:
Ice boots.. what is your preference? Plastic or Leather for doing steep water ice and alpine ice? If I can prevent it I rather only have one pair to do both.
From what I've heard is that plastic boots will wear out faster causing leakage into the boot. Leather boots I don't get the inner boot that I can take into the tent with me and be toasty warm.
For both types I'd have to get them with step in campron compatability... I don't do strap ons (no pun intended)
What are your ideas?
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jebel_andi
Oct 25, 2004, 6:49 PM
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Leather boots are much more comforable then plastic so if you are planning to do summer mountaineering with a lot of non technical stuff (mostly walking up hill) or ice climbing with out long cold aproaches I would recomend leather. Plastic does it all and if you only want one set of boots I would say go with the plastic because they generally are warmer then leather and it sucks to have cold feet. The only draw back to plastic I have found is it can be uncomfortable to walk a long time in them on solid ground(not snow) so it sucks for summer mountaneering where you will be walking a long time on dirt trails or moraine.
Thats my experience at least, hope it helps.
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qpang
Oct 25, 2004, 7:22 PM
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Go with the plastic. If you take time to get a good pair that are properl fitted they can be just as comfy as any other boot. They can be more durable and do everything and more than a leather boot. I planted trees for four years in a pair of Asolo boots and I no longer plant trees, but I still have the boots, and after resoling them (which was cheap) I use them to this day for ice climbing (mostly waterfall ice). Other guys that I planted trees with would go through 2 to 3 pairs of leather boots EVERY season if you think durability is an issue. The initial cost is higher, but well worth the investment in my opinion.
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tradklime
Oct 25, 2004, 8:16 PM
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Climbing technical ice in leather boots is SSSOOOOOOO much better than plastics.
My take, plastics are for slogging mountian routes. Anything else, leather all the way.
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qpang
Oct 25, 2004, 8:22 PM
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Ask my climbing partner which is better, plastic or leather, after he almost got frostbite in his leather boots. He now owns plastic boots too.
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discolegsyndrome
Oct 25, 2004, 10:34 PM
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Thanks guys for all the replies!
I still have some time before ice season.. it's still pretty warm outside.
You guys made good points for both sorts of boots. I'll definelty try a bunch of then before commiting the cash. I guess most important of all is the fit.
Happy climbing!
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brianthew
Oct 25, 2004, 11:08 PM
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I climb in plastics now, but my previous pair was leather. The reason I switched was temperature related. Though often people will say plastic is better on steep technical ice than leather, properly fit leathers can out perform plastics (provided you can feel your feet 8^) ). The leathers gave my climbing more of a "rock climbing" feel as they were more sensitive and weighed less.
The key is fit, be it leather or plastic. Let it rule your decision, not the material the boots are made of.
Don't know about alpine ice; up here in the northern midwest we ain't got none.
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discolegsyndrome
Oct 25, 2004, 11:17 PM
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Definelty the fit is paramount...
But concerning plastics.. has anyone had those suckers leak? That has to be my best reservation about them.
Here it can get pretty cold.. and my climbing partner is not the sanest of persons so I forsee myself going on routes at -20C not mentioning the windchill. Plastics do make sense at this point.
I've tried both at an ice fest last season. In terms of feel.. I'm a noob.. I don't know any better...
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brianthew
Oct 26, 2004, 2:11 AM
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In reply to: Here it can get pretty cold.. and my climbing partner is not the sanest of persons so I forsee myself going on routes at -20C not mentioning the windchill. Plastics do make sense at this point.
It's chilly, but leathers + warm socks will get you through -20C. Plastics might be better here, though.
In reply to: But concerning plastics.. has anyone had those suckers leak?
I've never encountered leaking plastic boots.
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fryinbacon
Oct 26, 2004, 2:26 AM
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I've used plastics and leathers - proper fit is pretty much the most important thing here. A lot of plastic boots have one size shell for every 2 sizes. Which means less than a perfect fit unless you are the exact size the shell is intended for. I've always been pretty happy with plastics, but when it came time for a serious purchase I got the La Sportiva Nepal Extremes - warm and great for technical. Yes, they are leather boots.
PS I've done some crazy cold camping/climbing - you dont need liners to keep your feet toasty, let them dry out while you put somethin else on your feet.
Also - if you want leather boots with liners go with the Nuptse... I think? There's a pair, maybe even a few, out there.
Brian
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cryder
Oct 26, 2004, 3:55 AM
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In reply to: I've used plastics and leathers - proper fit is pretty much the most important thing here. A lot of plastic boots have one size shell for every 2 sizes.
This is quite true, but the manufacturers are starting to catch up as the category gets more competitive. I would recommend using an extra insole if there is any boot slop.
The single greatest advantage with plastic boots for my climbing (I do commiting alpine routes, often solo) is knowing that my feet will be warm, and that if I need to I can wear my liners into my bivy where they will have a good chance to dry out a bit. Anyone who has ever had to thaw a frozen solid leather boot will appreciate this concept quite a bit. This is more of an issue during the spring climbing when daytime temps slip above freezing, and night temps freeze hard. As for plastics leaking, never had or hear of it happening. Now that leather boots are often silicone impregnated they are a lot better for some winter applications... but it sure is nice to have a removable liner.
In the summer, I use an ultra light approach shoe and just switch to climbing shoes once on the route. I would love to find a worthy hybrid though.
- n -
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cfnubbler
Oct 26, 2004, 12:12 PM
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In reply to: Though often people will say plastic is better on steep technical ice than leather,
Hmmm...actually, I've never heard anyone say that. Quite the opposite, in fact. If pure climbing performance were the only concern, leathers are the way to go, hands down.
IMHO, the most important consideration in fitting a pair of ice boots (as far as frontpointing is concerned) is avoiding "heel-lift". Perhaps it's the shape of my foot, but I've never been able to lock down my heels securely in plastics without custom liners (very expensive).
With leathers, I can lock in and feel much, much more secure. I also find that the lower overall volume of many leathers makes them feel more precise when rock climbing- no bulbous shell sticking out over the edge of the soles to get in the way when edging. Admittedly, there are well designed plastics where this isn't an issue, but I still prefer the leathers.
I have yet to find a pair of leathers that is as warm as a good plastic, it's true (and I've tried Sportiva, Boreal, Vasque, Scarpa, Asolo and others. The Vasque Super Andinista was very warm, but was high colume enough that it felt more like a plastic than a leather to me, though the heel fit was good.
And If you're doing multiday alpine routes in winter, the advantage of taking the liners out to dry in your bag is nice (though you can just take the whole leather boot in in a pinch). But for single day ice routes, leathers can't be beat IMO. I'd recommend you take an honest look at how much multi-day climbing you do and factor that heavily in to your choice.
I climb extensively in your neck of the woods (Northern New England, Adirondacks, Eastern Canada) and so am familiar with the conditions you deal with. I find leathers are quite adaquate in terms of warmth, and phenomenal in terms of performace.
-Nubbler
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robreglinski
Oct 26, 2004, 12:22 PM
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ive got salamon prothermics (the big orange ones). there very nice and leather with an inner boot which makes you tostie warm inside your tent.
there good when wet too coming form scotland ive got that well tested :wink:
they are wide fitting compared to the nepal extremes or the trango's however like ski boots you can get the molded to your feet to imporve fit.
the laces are crap when wet or frozen replace em otherwise top boot.
rob (winter is coming over here all 4 days of it) :(
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thedesertnomad
Oct 26, 2004, 1:14 PM
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Comfort and quality should govern your decision. My leathers once got soooo wet (inside and out) that they froze quite solid by morning. I didn't have the fuel to spare to properly thaw them, so I battled near frostbite conditions for a couple of days. The following week I got my first pair of Koflach plastics. I have abused them relentlessly for the past 7 years and never sprung a leak. As far as comfort climbing or hiking (let it be known that I LOVE a really stiff boot) these babies feel more like bedroom slippers than boots!!!!! I recently bought a pair of Scarpas for when the inevidible happens and I do wear out my first pair.
Leathers these days are pretty good, but as far as I am concerned... plastics with removable booties are THE ONLY WAY. I am always hearing LEATHER LEATHER LEATHER... so as always, do your homework, and choose wisely, most of all have fun
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urbansherpa
Oct 26, 2004, 1:38 PM
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If I were to go with one pair for the New England area I'd go with Plastic.
I wore my Lowa Civetta Extremes in the Presidentials this past mid-January. We summitted Adams and Washington and our feet remained warm enough at -45*F with a wind-chill of -100*F (yes, you can confirm this on the Mount Washington Obs site).
We stayed the night at Grey Knob (no fire) and while stationary our feet got cold, but hey, any boots would be.
The trick with plastics is, of course, fit. I heated mine (hot water only), blocked them, and gently made them fit my feet perfectly.
Leathers will eventually mold to your feet, but it will take many miles first.
If plastics don't quite fit, they never will.
I use my Civettas for W ice, and slogging in the Whites, and they do quite well. Leather will give you more feel, and allow you to climb better, but if they get wet (even from the inside, out, with sweat/condensation then you're doomed (on a multi-day trip). With plastics you wear the bootie to bed, and they're dry by morn.
I like the plastics for any overnight trips. Leathers would be better for single day trips, or times when wetness is an issue.
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fryinbacon
Oct 26, 2004, 3:38 PM
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http://www.mtntools.com/...rtivanuptseboots.htm
just to update my post. These are leather double boots. La Sportiva Nuptse. Performance you can appreciate from a leather. Liner to keep you extra toasty and easier to dry.
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forkliftdaddy
Oct 26, 2004, 3:59 PM
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Vasque Super Alpinistas have the comfort and flexibility of a leather boot combined with the waterproofness of plastic. they're warm enough for the lower 48, but you'd better use a vapor liner to keep them dry inside.
http://www.vasque.com/...-super-alpinista.cfm
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thomasribiere
Oct 26, 2004, 5:35 PM
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here is my experience for summer snow and easy ice alpinism with long approaches :
temperature : platic > leather
foot comfort with crampons : plastic >/= leather
foot comfort on walking 1 or 2 consecutive days on alpine paths : leather (old shoes) >>> plastic
knee, hip and back comfort : leather >>> plastic
My Plastic are Koflach, and I don't remember what were my leather shoes.
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sandstone
Oct 26, 2004, 6:12 PM
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I've used Koflach, Raichle, and Scarpa plastics, but since I got my leather LaSportiva Nepal Extremes 2 years ago I have not ice climbed in a plastic boot. I still own a pair of Scarpa plastics -- I just don't use them.
The leathers just climb better. I can feel what I'm doing far better in leathers than in plastics. There's no comparison in that regard in my opinion.
Plastics always made my knees hurt if I had to walk a long distance in them (especially downhill). The leathers have never made my knees hurt.
On a trip to New England I'll throw the plastics in the duffel bag, just in case the temperatures get extremely brutal, but so far they have just stayed there in the bottom of the duffel bag.
If I could only have one boot to use for ice and mountaineering in the lower 48 it would be the Nepal Extremes, hands down, no question about it.
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fryinbacon
Oct 26, 2004, 6:18 PM
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Sandstone: and thats why i got em.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 26, 2004, 6:49 PM
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If you are climbing hard and fast leather hands down. they climb WAY better than plastic. If you are climbing easy and slow plastic will be warmer. If you plan on doing real mountain climbing rather then waterfall climbing go with plastic for warmth. Waterfall craging and single day alpine acents leather all the way.
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mtselman
Oct 27, 2004, 10:06 PM
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In reply to: If you are climbing hard and fast leather hands down. they climb WAY better than plastic. If you are climbing easy and slow plastic will be warmer. If you plan on doing real mountain climbing rather then waterfall climbing go with plastic for warmth. Waterfall craging and single day alpine acents leather all the way.
Good summary, except you can climb hard and fast in plastics as well.
As for single day alpine ascents - agreed, leathers are fine as long as a single day ascent does not turn into a multiday epic. The nights are cold and the feet are the first ones to suffer on a cold bivy.
Also, some of the new double-leathers or other "serious" leather boots are often heavier than some of the modern plastics.
I also found plastics providing much more support on very long stretches of moderate-to-steep grade alpine ice. Your calves do not get tired as much as in too technically oriented leathers.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 28, 2004, 5:01 AM
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Of course if you are good you can climb hard and fast in anything. Just a generalization. I am sure that modern plastics are way better than my last pair of purple Kolflachs. I do know that when i adjusted my crampons to fit my new nepal Extremes I shortened them up 3/4ths of an inch. that speaks oodles about better control and dexterity on technical terrain. I would still rather have a toasty plastic boot if i had to spend a night out on a mountain or if I climbed with a slow party. the only time my feet have been really cold with the extremes was with a party of 3 on grade 3 multi pitch in minus 10 degrees F with stiff wind :? Another thing to think about is that if you climb in plastics you get used to the larger size of your foot and don't notice how clumsy they are. When you switch to leather you feel like superman for about a week and then don't notice the difference any more. It's all in what you are used to.
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valeberga
Oct 28, 2004, 5:34 AM
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In reply to: I also found plastics providing much more support on very long stretches of moderate-to-steep grade alpine ice. Your calves do not get tired as much as in too technically oriented leathers.
I'll go as far as saying that this extra ankle rigidity actually is an advantage on any ice that isn't just some sport crag. The stability, extra swing weight, and the generous support above the ankles actually makes the footwork quite solid, and in fact easier and less tiring, even on vertical ice. This I believe is true until you cross a certain technical threshold, which IMHO can actually be pretty high (of course this depends on the climber). I like being able to stand on a dime-edge on one monopoint without experiencing any calf or foot fatigue, and penetration is better with the increased weight. But then again I'm am only an alpine climber, and wouldn't even call myself an expert at that. But don't be so quick to dismiss the performance of plastics.
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montafoner
Oct 30, 2004, 2:56 PM
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I have tried on the Vasque Super Alpinista, and for my foot the fit is perfect. The only downside is that it is not a double boot. But rumor has it (I couldn't verify) that the Vasque Ice 9000 is a double boot made with that funky new thermoplastic urethane, Kevlar nylon mesh, Mylar film and Aveo Foam material that touts the best of both worlds. Any comments?
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