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rockprodigy
Oct 26, 2004, 3:50 PM
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I went over to 8a.nu to read about Beth Rodden, and saw this article on a new and improved method for GriGri belaying:
http://www.8a.nu/eng/articles/grigri.htm
Here is the text:
In reply to: God's gift to sport climbers - a common opinion about Petzl's GRIGRI. However, you have probably heard about mystical accidents or incidents where the self-breaking mechanism did not work properly. Since 8a.nu consider the GRIGRI to be the safest belaying device for sport climbing we believe these accidents to be caused by improper handling and would like to share some thoughts about belaying techniques. According to Petzl, your hands should always be on the rope, on both sides of the GRIGRI. However, even Petzl admits that this is difficult when feeding out rope quickly. To overcome the problem they recommend to "slide the hand holding the free end up the rope to the device and manually hold the cam open...". Most climbers find the Petzl recommendation tricky to use. It is hard to put sufficient pressure on the cam to make the slacking fast enough and at the same time holding on to the free end of the rope. Instead, the climbing community has invented new methods that are not 100% safe. There are of course variations on the community and normal procedure exemplified above, but the fact is that most climbers let go of the free end of the rope, totally against all Petzl's recommendations and very dangerous. The new technique on the other hand, never let go of the free end of the rope and still makes it easy to put pressure on the cam. Both the fast slacking and the security is thus ensured. In addition, there is no risk of twisting the GRIGRI (see below). GRIGRI incidents is most likely due to one or a combination of the following factors: 1. The rope is too thin Petzl recommends the diameter of the rope to be between 10 and 11 cm although 9,7 cm is accepted. Climbers using even thinner ropes, relying on the self-breaking mechanism, may be in great danger. 2. The GRIGRI is twisted - turned around 90 degrees, the self-breaking mechanism is unable to lock properly. The problem where the GRIGRI gets twisted is caused either by having it incorrectly attached to the harness or by holding it in a wrong way. To work properly, the screw-carabiner holding the GRIGRI should be attached to the harness loop only. Incorrectly attached, the carabiner may hold the GRIGRI in an angle where the self-breaking function is unable to lock, even if the fingers are not touching the cam. This problem is accentured with a large screw-carabiner. 3. The belayer is not holding the free end of the rope Most climbers have overconfidence in the self-breaking function. In order to ensure a fast and reliable slack they let go of the free end of the rope to be able to hold down the cam. Finally, we would like to state that these thoughts are not from Petzl. Petzl has not approved the techniques described above and using them is at your own risk.
Here are the photos:
Petzl Recommendation:
http://www.8a.nu/...ics/petzl/petzl2.jpg
The Petzl way to feed out rope rapidly. Not commonly used, probably since slacking is not fast enough or percieved as uncomfortable.
The standard method:
http://www.8a.nu/...s/sterky2griogri.jpg
Adjusted and common usage.
The hand has been moved further up to increase pressure on the cam and has thus left the free end of the rope - Danger!
Their "new" method:
http://www.8a.nu/...ics/sterkygrigri.jpg
New technique:
Fast and comfortable
Free end of the rope secured
GRIGRI is in right angle
HERE IS MY QUESTION:
Does anyone know what they are talking about, and/or has anyone used this "new" method? I don't see in the photo where they are holding down the cam. I have see two of my friends dirt from using grigris and I've heard of many more incidents, so if there is a better way to use it, I'd like to know.
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rockprodigy
Oct 26, 2004, 3:52 PM
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It looks like maybe her thumb of her right hand is holding down the lever as her left pulls out slack. Is that right?
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jakedatc
Oct 26, 2004, 4:05 PM
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no.. the lever is still closed...
it does look like only a few fingers are holding the break side.. not very strong ... only middle, ring and pinky are holding the rope.... thumb and index are holding the grigri straight up and down in the "proper position"
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mingus
Oct 26, 2004, 4:07 PM
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yes - her thumb is holding the cam closed for fast feeding of slack to the leader.
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caughtinside
Oct 26, 2004, 4:10 PM
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It looks like her thumb is pressing down on the lever to hold the cam open. The lever hasn't been opened all the way, she's pressing down on the end of the metal part of the lever.
I'm still not sure i understand it, I'll have to play with the grigri when I get home.
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rockprodigy
Oct 26, 2004, 4:21 PM
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In reply to: I'm still not sure i understand it, I'll have to play with the grigri when I get home.
Yes, it is very confusing. I'm not sure if it's the translation, or what, but the article is very hard to understand.
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drector
Oct 26, 2004, 5:01 PM
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The lever need not be "opened" to press on the cam to keep it from locking. Her thumb is on the cam at the point where the lever pivot is located (for opening the lever). The cam does not need to have the lever open to be "freed" if the cam has not been engaged by a fall. It only takes tiny bit of pressure to hold the cam from locking as the slack is fed.
If you have a Gri Gri then you can simply try these methods. If you don't then you will need to borrow one and try it before any of this makes sense.
Dave
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djnibs
Oct 26, 2004, 5:24 PM
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The cam lever is held from locking up. Notice how their hand is still on the brake rope! I find this way far superior than any other i have used. If you have a grigri, try it out.
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therealdeal
Oct 26, 2004, 6:00 PM
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thanks, mike...i posted a link to this article a couple of weeks ago, but obviously people don't want to bother...they need it fed to them.
this is not just another way to hold the gri-gri, but really the only responsible way to do it IMHO. and its fully natural...i've never held it any other way.
if you hold down the mechanism with your entire hand, therefore overpowering the device, you are blowing it...it is not possible to overpower it with just your thumb...and you never need to let go of the rope.
its nice that the Swedes took the time to put this up on their great site...
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staal
Oct 26, 2004, 6:04 PM
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I like a slight modification of the "new" method:
Instead of holding the index finger below the grigri housing (as in the picture of the "new" method) in order to pinch the cam open, close it around the rope like the other fingers and let the upper side of the index finger (upper as in closed fist holding the rope vertically) rest against the rounded lip the rope (break side) travels over. Thumb stays as in picture. This lets you have all fingers around the break hand rope and lets you keep the hand in the same position at all times (no fumbling to find the grigri when needing to pay out quickly).
Hope this description makes sense... :)
The reflex of tightening the grip on the break rope should disengage the thumb from the cam :)
Just my $0.02.
Take care,
Staal
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rockprodigy
Oct 26, 2004, 6:18 PM
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In reply to: I like a slight modification of the "new" method: Instead of holding the index finger below the grigri housing (as in the picture of the "new" method) in order to pinch the cam open, close it around the rope like the other fingers and let the upper side of the index finger (upper as in closed fist holding the rope vertically) rest against the rounded lip the rope (break side) travels over. Thumb stays as in picture. This lets you have all fingers around the break hand rope and lets you keep the hand in the same position at all times (no fumbling to find the grigri when needing to pay out quickly). Take care, Staal
This sounds like another good idea. I understand it now, I'll have to try these out, and more importantly, teach my belayer!
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unabonger
Oct 29, 2004, 5:17 PM
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I don't like it.
I have a better method. Please stand by: I'll post pics on monday.
UB
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jt512
Oct 29, 2004, 5:41 PM
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I think the whole theory behind the "new" method is flawed. The idea behind it is that you can keep your brake hand on the rope all time. However, to do so, using the "new" method, you hold the cam open continuously. These priorities are reversed, and practically defeat the purpose of using a grigri in the first place.
-Jay
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samuel
Oct 29, 2004, 5:46 PM
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Greetings,
I have been using this method for about a year now, and have been advocating it ever since I started using it.
Everyone I have taught this method to (in person) is preferring it over other ways.
I posted an explanation of it here in August:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...45&highlight=#822845
Staal: if you use your index finger to lock it off you have almost the same problem as previous gri-gri methods.
This method relies on not pinching, and therefor you won't lock the device open if you "freeze", which is possible if you use your index finger under the lip. (Although even that is probably better than previous methods)
I hope this will catch on. It does make belaying with a gri-gri a lot safer (than what most people do)
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samuel
Oct 29, 2004, 6:33 PM
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Hi Jay,
I know you have seen this one before :)
Firstly, I do not trust the "auto-locking" mechanism. I know it has failed on several occasions, so letting go of the rope is not an option.
Secondly, The cam is not held open at all times with this method.
The last time we discussed this I offered you to send you a video of it. It actually shows that the cam is only held open at the moment rope is payed out.
Also, since you wouldn't let go of the break end, pinching the rope ever so slightly would cause the gri-gri to lock up, even if you did still have your tHumb on top; there is no power there since you're not pinching with the rest of your fingers on the underside of the gri-gri. The thumb does not have to "slip off" as some poster suggested.
I still believe this will become clear to you if you try it out a couple of times.
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staal
Nov 1, 2004, 3:38 PM
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Here is something that might add a little authority to the debate :)
The Swiss Alpine Club published an article about belaying that highlights some of the issues with the GriGri. It recommends a method similar to the method in the 8a article, with the exception of the index finger used to pinch the underside of the device housing. The swiss article is written by
W. Britschgi, author of a book on climbing safety containing an analysis of belaying techniques.
The article can be found here, unfortunately only in german:
http://alpen.sac-cas.ch/...03/ad_2004_03_03.pdf
Figure 9 shows the recommended technique.
Staal
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grayhghost
Nov 1, 2004, 3:55 PM
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samuel-
Firstly, I do not trust the "auto-locking" mechanism. I know it has failed on several occasions,...
wow! this is an incredible statement because I aid-solo all
the time using my gri-gri. Do you have any specifics to go
along with these situations? I personaly have only seen the
gri-gri fail through human error, I freaked out once and
tightened my grip on the non-brake-side of the rope and the
cam did not engage until I came to my senses and let the device
do its job.
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samuel
Nov 2, 2004, 8:00 PM
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In reply to: samuel- Firstly, I do not trust the "auto-locking" mechanism. I know it has failed on several occasions,... wow! this is an incredible statement because I aid-solo all the time using my gri-gri. Do you have any specifics to go along with these situations? I personaly have only seen the gri-gri fail through human error, I freaked out once and tightened my grip on the non-brake-side of the rope and the cam did not engage until I came to my senses and let the device do its job.
As you probably know, the locking mechanism needs the rope to accelerate in a certain speed to engage.
This not happening can be caused by rope drag and such, and would therefor happen more easily towards the end of a route, and/or immediately after clipping in, since that would be similar to falling on top rope and thus would give a smoother acceleration.
I have also tested this myself by giving a few meters of slack on the brake end, holding the rope further down and letting my partner fall. The grigri didn't lock up until the force of my hand holding the rope made it.
This was a pretty slick rope, so of course it depends on the rope used.
While aid-soloing, the acceleration of the rope through the grigri is probably higher, so it might be safer. Also, it wold depend on the angle of the rope coming out of the gri-gri.
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grigri
Nov 6, 2004, 2:51 PM
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:? jt512 One would only hold the grigri like this whilst paying out slack quickly for a clip, the rest of the time one would just hold the rope as per a normal belay device. Ive tried this method and its really good, much more secure and predictable than clamping your whole hand on the cam to 'strip' out slack as the brake hand stays on the rope. Its a useful method for older and thicker ropes that tend to activate the cam when paying out slack quickly, however I find with new, slick, thin diameter ropes that holding the cam is unnecessary as the rope pays out easily
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renobdarb
Nov 6, 2004, 3:21 PM
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I have an even better solution: buy an ATC... they are just as effective if you have a good belayer...
Case in point: have you seen a thread this long about how to use an ATC?
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topher
Nov 6, 2004, 5:31 PM
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that method is nothing new. it has been around for a long time and i can say once learned its great.. use it love it nuf said
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mingleefu
Nov 6, 2004, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: I have an even better solution: buy an ATC... they are just as effective if you have a good belayer... Case in point: have you seen a thread this long about how to use an ATC?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=917798&highlight=#917798
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saltamonte
Nov 6, 2004, 11:27 PM
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I will give it a try some time at the crag. however I am a little concerned. I ussually belay with an atc but when I am bring a "beginner" out to the crag I teach them to belay me with the grigri which for a beginner is harder to mess up than an atc. I always taught them the "old method" of giving slack and emphesized for them to hold the grigri shut ONLY when giving slack. With this new method it seems will have a person holding the grigri shut nearly the entire time which seems just as if not more dangerous than the old way.
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jt512
Nov 7, 2004, 7:11 PM
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In reply to: :? jt512 One would only hold the grigri like this whilst paying out slack quickly for a clip, the rest of the time one would just hold the rope as per a normal belay device.
Actually, no. The idea is to use the "new" method the whole time.
-Jay
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