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mingleefu
Nov 1, 2004, 4:30 AM
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I have very little (that is, zero) insider knowledge on how the access fund relates between local groups, local concerns, and the national level of their organization. My thought is this: It sounds to me like you are the best thing to happen to your local crag- is it possible for you to gain affiliation with the access fund? Would it be plausible for your efforts to be assimilated into the greater borg of the access fund, or would that just throw red tape over every action you would try to carry out?
It seems to me that it may be more productive for you to serve as an officer of the organization rather for you to be a local contact of that organization.
Would such a thing help or hamper your efforts?
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bldr
Nov 1, 2004, 6:11 AM
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Roughster I'm confused, you say that prior to April 15, 2003 it was 100% legal to bolt and climb at Auburn. Why have you been working with, or trying to work with, the AF for 3 years? If everything was fine, people could climb & you could bolt, what changed or what caused the SRA to change the status of access?
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roughster
Nov 1, 2004, 7:33 AM
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In reply to: Roughster I'm confused, you say that prior to April 15, 2003 it was 100% legal to bolt and climb at Auburn. Why have you been working with, or trying to work with, the AF for 3 years? If everything was fine, people could climb & you could bolt, what changed or what caused the SRA to change the status of access?
The rangers had been kicking people out since Dale's "days". There just was no legal reason for it, rather they were scared because of Kirk Arens fatal rope jumping accident and associated that event with "climbing" despite Dale and then myself explaining to them that what Kirk was doing was not climbing at all.
I was told by a friend, who I refered out there to check out some of the new routes, in the winter of 2001 that they had been kicked out of Auburn and the ranger told them to contact the SRA concering legality of climbing out there. The ranger said that he was told it was "illegal" but wasn't sure. I followed up with it but never got a return call and figured it might have been a one off since I had been climbing out there for awhile (over 2 years) and never had an issue. I did contact the AF and was told until they were actually kicking people out regularly, since I relayed my experience which had been with rangers but never kicked out, to not worry about it.
In 2002, I was approached, except this time the person gave me contact info directly to the supe. I called the SRA supe and found out that while there was no legal basis for kicking people out, they didn't "want" anyone climbing out there. The phone call basically ended with her saying she would look into and see if climbing was allowed and call me back. Well everything went on status quo and then bam, the order cam out in 2003. During that time, I had several conversations with the AF about the situation and begun working on some of the stuff I did for them.
This has been a long and sapping process just to get to this point which is basically the same place it has always been except maybe even worse due to inquiring about the issue. Hence the frustration. Anyways, I'm going to fire off one more round of emails tomorrow to both the Ex and current Regional coordinators, Shawn, and Deanne. Hopefully I'll get a response :?:
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colkurtz
Nov 1, 2004, 9:03 AM
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setting up a 501(c)(3) very easy to do. unless, of course, you have no friends. basically, there are funding requirements so that it can't be your own private entity. so this is a great way to show that you are not some local wacko with a huge agenda and a loud mouth (not that you are).
i never let myself be the point man on things like this since people are generally intimidated by me. sometimes it is better (more efficient) working thanklessly behind the scenes. but, i understand that sometimes there is a need to be the hero and be compensated for your sacrifices.
and a little honey never hurts
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roughster
Nov 1, 2004, 9:10 AM
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In reply to: setting up a 501(c)(3) very easy to do. unless, of course, you have no friends. basically, there are funding requirements so that it can't be your own private entity. so this is a great way to show that you are not some local wacko with a huge agenda and a loud mouth (not that you are). i never let myself be the point man on things like this since people are generally intimidated by me. sometimes it is better (more efficient) working thanklessly behind the scenes. but, i understand that sometimes there is a need to be the hero and be compensated for your sacrifices. and a little honey never hurts
Actually, I personally don't want to be the mouthpiece. I am one of those types of people who invokes a response. Either you will like me or you will not and you will know it within 15 minutes of meeting me. I think this is a liability when dealing with access issues. I have been the mouthpiece out of necessity, as in no one else will do it :( Good news is though, one of the guys I climbed with this weekend, or Hell even Dave, you likeable fellow you ;) , would be better suited to being the contact and I would gladly continue to do the work in the background and let them take over the people part.
The problem I find is lots of people like to talk about access, but when you have to sacrifice one of your weekend days or climbing days to do it, volunteers become scarce :(
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cfnubbler
Nov 1, 2004, 1:06 PM
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The AF has been absolutley fantastic in our little northeastern backwater.
After a group of concerned locals began to organize on our own to protect some threatened crags, we contacted them for advice. We then set about obtaining 501c-3 status and commencing our own fundraising efforts. Recognizing this, the AF kicked in some significant financial support of its own. Result: the most popular crag in our area purchased and saved from development. It's now preserved in perpetuity for climbing.
Building on this success, another project was identified. Now having a proven track-record of both local and national support, the locals set about fundraising and grant-writing to raise money for an additional purchase. The grants came in, and the AF stepped up to the plate and helped make it happen. This transaction will be completed in December, securing in perpetuity a once-threatened crag again.
None of this would have been possible without help from the AF. But I know from personal, first hand experience that they look for more local support than a few phone calls and list of "200+ names".
Anybody can collect signatures for almost any purpose. Anybody can look at tax and property maps in a town clerk's office. Anybody can make a few phone calls. Big f#cking deal. When you get down to the real hard work of grassroots fundraising and motivating local support, then you're doing something meaningful. The Access Fund helps those who help themselves. And frankly, the list of actions you've taken is not impressive. You're to be commended for taking the initiative to begin the process, but you've got a hell of a lot more to do before you've really shown the AF (or anyone else) much.
I've heard a lot about the AF only focusing on big name western crags. That's BS. They'll help anyone who demonstrates determination, local support and organization, and persistence. Believe me, the crags they've so effectively helped us with in my area will never be big names. But thanks in no small part to the AF, they're all ours.
Check out this link to learn more about how to make things happen at the grassroots level: http://www.cragvt.org/
-Nubbler
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johnr9q
Nov 1, 2004, 3:52 PM
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I am totally behind Aaron and would certainly be willing to take a more active role in resolving this issue. I do prefer to climb rather than talk but with an issue this important I think it is time to do a little more talking. I think Aaron's efforts have been comendable and Auburn is lucky to have a spokesman like him. Before I talked to Aaron on Saturday and before this thread started I became independently concerned regard Auburn and fired off an Email to Shawn at the access fund to get a status. My first action will be to follow that up with a phone call.
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fredbob
Nov 1, 2004, 4:36 PM
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Aaron:
While I completely believe in the Access Fund as an organization and the incredibly positive effect it has had on preserving climbing in this country....it may come as a surprise to many that I have often disagreed with how they may approach particular access issues.
In these cases, local climbers are free to take the initiative and spearhead efforts and relegate the AF to a "supporting" role. It should be clear to you that this is the path you must take with regard to your local area.
It sounds as though other locals are willing to pitch in (even be the "pitch-man"). And frankly, having a core group of volunteers is essential to any access effort (and vital if it has any chance at success). Consider Curt's advice (form a non-profit). Get everything ready and then seek some financial assistance from the AF to get you off the ground.
But, it is basic to your effort that you need to organize. Organize people, strategy, publicity, outline a campaign, plan, plan and plan some more. There is tremendous power in bringing a concerted and organized effort against an unfair land management policy.
Be prepared to take this as far as necessary. Leave no stone or strategy unconsidered. Seek out the talents (and contacts) out in the local climbing community (they are broader than you might imagine).
Grass roots is where it is at.
But, the hardest lesson of all to learn is that no matter how well organized, funded and connected you may be (or how much attention the AF may devote), there is no guarantee of success. You do the best you can and maybe take it farther than you thought you could, but like life in general, sometimes you triumph, others you end up flat on your face.
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caughtinside
Nov 1, 2004, 5:07 PM
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The situation at Auburn is unfortunate, and Aaron is correct in stating that the Access Fund has done nothing to help. Curt posted a list of things we could do to get the ball rolling, and we have done all those things, except form a non profit. To imply that Aaron wants the Access Fund to hold his hand just demonstrates a lack of understanding of the situation.
We have discussed a letter campaign to local elected officials, but the AF rep has asked us not to. The AF has never emailed me with any sort of status update. The local AF rep also appears to be disorganized and unprofessional, making it easy for the SRA to ignore her.
All of this wouldn't be an issue if we weren't dealing with a land manager who is openly hostile to climbers. This quarry is in a state recreation area, and allows mountain biking, river rafting, motocross, horseback riding, and drunken yahooism on the riverbanks. Every reason we have been given by the land manager to not allow climbing is a non issue.
We can form a non profit easily. I'd rather spend the $500 filing fee on bolts, but it looks like the AF won't help, so we may have to.
Aaron's thread is bourne of frustration. We've been dealing with TWO groups that can't/won't do anything to address the issues of local climbers, the SRA and the AF.
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cfnubbler
Nov 1, 2004, 5:11 PM
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In reply to: We can form a non profit easily. I'd rather spend the $500 filing fee on bolts, but it looks like the AF won't help, so we may have to.
The irony in this statement is priceless....
-Nubbler
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caughtinside
Nov 1, 2004, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: We can form a non profit easily. I'd rather spend the $500 filing fee on bolts, but it looks like the AF won't help, so we may have to. The irony in this statement is priceless.... -Nubbler
Yeah. Why have one non profit when it takes two to do the job? :roll:
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killclimbz
Nov 1, 2004, 5:55 PM
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It is unfortunate that the AF is not helping you guys out more. I would say you are definitely going to have to take this fight up yourselves. The AF for the most part helps out in areas that have historical sigificance, are a major destination (loosely applied term), or in their backyard (hence the shelf road land acquisition.). Sounds like Auburn is an area that is not a fave of one of the local AF guys so they just don't care.
I wouldn't count on any support from them at this time, and you should take this into your own hands. It's the old if ya wanna get something done....situation.
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pmyche
Nov 1, 2004, 6:09 PM
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I urge anyone unsatisfied with any NFP group she donates to to directly contact them with grievances. In the case of AF: If you don't get any response from a given employee, take it to the next level. Write Executive Director Steve Matous and explain how you're unsatisfied with certain aspects of the group, including how you have been frustrated in your communication with his staff. Submit an article for publication in Vertcal Times (AF newsletter), Rock and Ice and Climbing. Explain to them that this is the reason you intend (or are considering) to discontinue your membership. The Fund must answer to the climbing community that it serves, and in my experience, it does a commendable job of doing that considering its finite resources. In cases that the group is not doing what it can/should, your input is vital to the group in adjusting its efforts.
I support what has been said here about AF being grassroots oriented. People who go out of thier way to make climbing better for everyone (read: climbers and non-climbers) are what comprises the Fund's network and strength. This this mentality extends to the staff personnel who probably make a lower salary than they could in similar jobs within other industries. I have spent some time working with the Fund in various capacities over the years, and I have seen in AF a passionate group of people who work very hard. The're not infallible, though, and they depend on feedback to keep on the right path.
Cheers.
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boadman
Nov 1, 2004, 6:11 PM
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I never thought much about the Access Fund until I climbed 4 of the routes on Castleton. They were all awesome, and I thought to myself, "I had better sign up for the Access Fund." I think that places like Castleton, the Gunks, Rumney...are a little more deserving of their efforts than a "manky quarry." If it's your home crag, go for it, but if you discontinue your Access Fund membership, you shouldn't (in good conscience) climb at the Spectacular areas they have save.
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caughtinside
Nov 1, 2004, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: If it's your home crag, go for it, but if you discontinue your Access Fund membership, you shouldn't (in good conscience) climb at the Spectacular areas they have save.
That doesn't make sense. I think I should be able to climb on public land without donating to a non profit.
Besides, if the non profit has no regard for my concerns, why shouldn't I divert my resources to my local area, and freeride on the work they do?
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dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: but if you discontinue your Access Fund membership, you shouldn't (in good conscience) climb at the Spectacular areas they have save.
Oh Horse shit!!! They don't own these areas and do not have my leave to A.: represent me and B. Decide who gets to climb (those who pay them lol!) and who does not.
They are exactly like public TV. The very idea that the public HAS to fund them (either one) is counter to their very charters!
I don't feel bad watching Nova, whether I gave this season or not. As a citizen I have already made my contribution. And I certainly wouldn't feel bad climbing a public route whether I gave to the AF this season or not.
I detest this 'if you didn't pay don't bother showing up' mentality.
Screw THAT. Don't "owe" them a damn thing to climb. Not one shiney penny.
Now I hasten to add that I have donated to the AF, this year and in hears gone by, so I don't want to give a miserly or curmudgeonly impression (or at least reenforce the one I already fomented). But don't go telling me I owe the AF a tinkers damn because emphatically I DO NOT!
DMT
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learnin2climb
Nov 1, 2004, 6:58 PM
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Any updates on the situation at Auburn? I'm new to the area and it seems like a good place to climb. I would be willing to help out with the cause, let me know if there is anything I can do.
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boadman
Nov 1, 2004, 7:50 PM
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How have you contributed to climber's access to Castleton by being a citizen? I don't understand that point of view. It was going to be developed and turned into a subdivision, what did you do to stop it (besides donating to the Access Fund)? You're position as a citizen entitles you to climb in areas that would have been closed if the Access Fund hadn't saved them? Where's the logical connection there? Watching public TV is different because some miniscule part of your tax dollars go to keeping them on the air. None of your tax dollars went to fund the Access Fund (unless it's a government agency and I didn't hear about it).
Dingus wrote-
As a citizen I have already made my contribution. And I certainly wouldn't feel bad climbing a public route whether I gave to the AF this season or not.
I detest this 'if you didn't pay don't bother showing up' mentality.
Screw THAT. Don't "owe" them a damn thing to climb. Not one shiney penny.
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bvb
Nov 2, 2004, 12:01 AM
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In reply to: Actually, I personally don't want to be the mouthpiece.
the volume and length of your posts here suggest otherwise.
why don't you just STFU, you brain-dead tool?
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dingus
Nov 2, 2004, 12:15 AM
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In reply to: You're position as a citizen entitles you to climb in areas that would have been closed if the Access Fund hadn't saved them?
No, my citizenship allows me to climb routes on public land without being required to pay a private entity for the privilege.
You suggest I donate, I might give a listen. You demand payment and I tell you to buggar off. You decide.
DMT
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caughtinside
Nov 2, 2004, 12:19 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Actually, I personally don't want to be the mouthpiece. the volume and length of your posts here suggest otherwise.
Bob,
Aaron has been doing all the work because this is a small area, with a limited number of climbers who know about it/climb there. So far no one else has stepped forward to do the work. How about taking your little beef elsewhere?
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socalbolter
Nov 2, 2004, 12:23 AM
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a few years back one of the local areas that i was the prime developer of was closed down by the land manager. in this case it was a national recreation area, managed by the NPS.
they had initially been fine with the climbing activity, but once it grew in popularity expressed concern over possible environmental impacts (primarily from the approach and access trails).
after about a year of closure, the area was reopened and enjoys continued access, fully supported by the NPS.
the access fund played a part in helping to identify the NPS' concerns and coordinate the local climbers' efforts, but far and away the majority of the work and effort was by the local climbers. in our case we did not form a NPO or a "friends of" group, but in hindsight these may have been good choices. undoubtably, we would have ended up there had we not met with success through the efforts we did make.
now that i'm on this side of it, i would be a liar if i did not acknowledge the access fund's part in the whole affair. if nothing else they were a source of information and direction to a bunch of clueless climbers that just wanted to climb. did we do the majority of the work? yes, but i would not have expected it to be any different - nor would i have preferred to have not been involved in what was at the time a very important part of my life.
just to be completely upfront, i am not a current access fund member and haven't been for a number of years. the main reason is that i choose instead to spend my personal $ and time on trail improvement supplies and tools, continuing relations with the land managers, and hosting adopt-a-crag efforts at this particular area (which i have hosted for the last 5 years and plan to continue to host). i feel that by and large i donate far more than what my annual membership fees might accomplish at areas that may or may not have the same significance to me as the local and regional "problem spots." this by no way means that i don't support their actions. i understand that in the big picture they have to pick and choose where to apply their resources to the greater good of the sport and its evolution. do i always agree with their disbursements? no, but without being a paying member i don't think that i truly should have any say in that. if i were a member i'd be more inclined to comment directly or to approach the staff directly.
i think the key here is to acknowledge the much higher responsibility of local climbers and groups and to understand the access fund's need to make decisions based on the "big picture."
let me also say that i've been to auburn and it truly could be everything that aaron says. for that particular region it's value could be immense.
good luck, aaron and keep my name on the list!
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mungeclimber
Nov 2, 2004, 12:26 AM
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Roughster, what do you say about doing the 501c3 thing?
Once we've done that and gathered a letter writing campaign- written to your address- what about taking it in to personally to the SRA to kick start the climbing management plan process? Isn't that what this boils down to- getting it ok'd by the state? If the AF hasn't had the resources (people), to be a gadfly to the State, then we should try and start that itching process so they have to scratch.
Btw, who is responsible for SRA management at the budget and discretionary spending level? e.g. Auburn gets it's funding from exactly where? This may be a lynch pin person or group to talk to (nicely) and bring in and educate about the area.
I'd like to propose that this thread no longer have any complaining by anyone, and only positive assertions, recommendations, and advice be posted forthwith.
Rough, you got the leadership role bro, let's do this.
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therealdeal
Nov 2, 2004, 12:31 AM
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I'd rather the AF spend its limited time and my donations protecting the very few World Class areas in america....
the red
the valley
hueco
etc.
there are enough issues facing the quality areas in the u.s. w/o diluting the cause...
if they tried to help every little crag of passing local interest...they would get even less done...
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bvb
Nov 2, 2004, 1:32 AM
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In reply to: Bob, How about taking your little beef elsewhere?
dude, there is nothing "little" about my beef.
9 out of ten grrrls agree.
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