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karlbaba


Nov 2, 2004, 3:58 PM
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Abu Nidal presented absolutely zero threat to the US. He hadn't been involved in terrorism in many years.

Yeah, he was a bloodthirsty terrorist, but if you're willing to invade a country over harboring one terrorist or several, you're going to have to invade Russia, France, and even, well, the US.

We have given sanctuary to numerous guys that other countries regard as terrorists. and we have a long history of sponsoring terrorism against enemies that we don't feel like invading personally.

You could make a case for invading any country in the world if you look hard and spin hard enough.

We should have got a UN resolution to invade Iraq. We played into Bin Laden's hand and removed the sworn enemy of the terrorists that we are really fighting, Saddam.

The only terrorists that Saddam was guilty of supporting were terrorists fighting Israeli occupation in Palestine. Nearly every Arab county is guilty of the same thing including our closest allies like Saudi Arabia.

Peace

Karl


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Nov 2, 2004, 4:33 PM
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Not according to the Dulfer Report. Seems like he was funneling large amounts of money from the UN "oil for dead babies" program directly to terrorist groups.

http://www.memri.org/...Area=iraq&ID=IA19304
Abbas was a Palestinian who, again, hadn't done anything in years.

Another one for the memory hole though, were the names of American Companies, who profitted, that did not appear in the CIA's publication. http://www.washingtonpost.com/...A16201-2004Oct7.html

In reply to:
The only terrorists that Saddam was guilty of supporting were terrorists fighting Israeli occupation in Palestine. Nearly every Arab county is guilty of the same thing including our closest allies like Saudi Arabia.
See one of my posts above where I mention anti-Iranian groups. Just to clarify, Palestinian groups were not all he supported, but most of what you said is dead on.


vertical_reality


Nov 2, 2004, 4:45 PM
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Well, I've posted the conclusive evidence that the ties to terrorism did/do in fact exist

Please contact the Bush administration with your findings, apparently you found something they over looked and they need all the help they can get.


vertical_reality


Nov 2, 2004, 4:46 PM
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Liberals will never concede that Iraq supported terror.

And noone will concede that the US supported terror.


monkey_toes


Nov 2, 2004, 4:53 PM
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Another one for the memory hole though, were the names of American Companies, who profitted, that did not appear in the CIA's publication. http://www.washingtonpost.com/...A16201-2004Oct7.html

Yep that really did p1ss me off. I know that exxon mobil were on the list but there were quite a few companies involved. As a consumer (and this should go for anyone republican or democrat) I would really like to know who I'm giving my money to. I think Texaco was another culprit - so when I need gas I just drive past these gas stations until they've been exhonorated. Just doing my bit.


karlbaba


Nov 2, 2004, 4:54 PM
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And Abbas was later forcefully supported by George Bush for Palestinian Leadership.

Peace

Karl

PS. I didn't think we were counting anti-Iranian terrorism since we've been willing to support that ourselves.


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Nov 2, 2004, 5:07 PM
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And Abbas was later forcefully supported by George Bush for Palestinian Leadership.

Peace

Karl

PS. I didn't think we were counting anti-Iranian terrorism since we've been willing to support that ourselves.
Generally that is true, we must maintain the blinders around crimes that we are associated with if we can't ignore our association altogether, but I thought we were being honest in this discussion. My bad. :wink:

I retract all previous statements. Saddam was an Arab Hitler! :angel:


prufrock


Nov 2, 2004, 5:40 PM
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Well, I've posted the conclusive evidence that the ties to terrorism did/do in fact exist

Please contact the Bush administration with your findings, apparently you found something they over looked and they need all the help they can get.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ah, excellent vertical_reality. And the most important point of this whole discussion. Why hasn't the government brought this iron-clad proof that Saddam was a major terrorist? They had plenty to gain, and little to lose. And the most informed opinion.


thomasribiere


Nov 2, 2004, 7:11 PM
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since this morning, I've been wondering why this thread. And in my mind, I was thinking about the Achille Lauro.
DO you remember the Achille Lauro? It was a ship which had been hijacked in the MEditerranean sea by palestinian terrorists, and I think people had been killed on it, but i'm not sure anymore. I'm gonna google that.
For me, Abu Nidal = Achille Lauro, and Abu Nidal was long considered as a terrorist by the French authorities? I'm gonna google that. ANd then discuss...


thomasribiere


Nov 2, 2004, 7:20 PM
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«Achille-Lauro » La croisière de la terreur

C’était un terroriste oublié. Un guérillero palestinien à la retraite. Planqué chez Saddam Hussein, Abou Abbas se croyait à l’abri. Mais les Américains ne lui ont jamais pardonné le détournement du paquebot italien, en 1985, et l’assassinat de Leon Klinghoffer, un vieil homme hémiplégique dont le seul crime était d’être juif…


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Entouré d’un mur de marines, l’homme est obligé de se baisser pour entrer dans le véhicule blindé qui doit l’emmener au quartier général US. Il mesure 1,90 mètre. C’est peut-être pour les Américains le prisonnier le plus encombrant qu’ils aient fait depuis leur entrée le 15 avril dans Bagdad. Depuis plusieurs années il était l’hôte clandestin de Saddam.
C’est une star du terrorisme palestinien. Il s’appelle Mohammed Zeidan Abbas. Appelons-le par son nom de guerre, Abou Abbas. Il est pour les Etats-Unis une vieille connaissance. Ils ne l’ont jamais perdu de vue malgré ses multiples déguisements. Si la CIA l’a traqué avec autant d’acharnement que Saddam Hussein, c’est parce qu’il a été le stratège du détournement de l’«Achille-Lauro» en octobre 1985, dont le but était une attaque éclair contre la base israélienne d’Ashdod. Les Américains n’ont jamais pardonné la semaine de terreur infligée aux passagers de ce paquebot de croisière, ni surtout l’assassinat de Leon Kling-hoffer, un vieux juif new-yorkais. Rien de ce qui s’est passé après, pas même le 11 septembre, l’horreur de Ground Zero, les guerres d’Afghanistan et d’Irak, n’a émoussé leur désir de justice et de vengeance.
Le 3 octobre 1985, Abou Abbas n’est pas à San Pietro Darena, la gare maritime de Gênes où 755 passagers embarquent à bord de l’«Achille-Lauro» pour un périple qui doit les promener autour de la Méditerranée et les ramener à Gênes, via Naples, Alexandrie, Port-Saïd, Ashdod en Israël, Rhodes, Le Pirée et Capri. Le dissident palestinien dirige l’opération contre Ashdod depuis le Liban.
[..]
La plus grande partie des passagers quitte l’«Achille-Lauro» pour visiter les pyramides et prendre un petit air d’Egypte. Le bateau les reprendra à Port-Saïd. Les autres restent à bord. Ils sont 201. L’«Achille-Lauro» reprend la mer. A partir de là, on ne sait plus très bien ce qui s’est passé. Les mémoires flanchent. Ce dont on est sûr, c’est que le commando avait pour instruction de se tenir tranquille jusqu’à l’arrivée à Ashdod où il devait détruire par surprise le commandement de la base navale située à 200 mètres du point d’accostage de l’«Achille-Lauro». Mais les hommes d’Abou Abbas ont été forcés de passer prématurément à l’action après avoir été surpris par un membre de l’équipage en train de nettoyer leurs armes. Quatre heures après le départ d’Alexandrie, les passagers entendent des détonations qu’ils hésitent à prendre pour des coups de feu. Pour certains, c’est un terroriste qui leur a intimé l’ordre, par le haut-parleur du bord, de se rassembler dans la salle à manger.
[..]
Les terroristes sont eux aussi pris au piège. Leur plan a foiré. Le raid sur Ashdod est désormais impossible. Les pays susceptibles de les accueillir se défilent les uns après les autres, Libye, Liban, Chypre. Reste la Syrie. C’est pour faire pression sur les autorités syriennes que le commando a froidement assassiné Leon Klinghoffer. Mais Damas ne veut rien savoir. L’«Achille-Lauro» regagne Port-Saïd, où un nouvel acteur vient d’entrer en scène: Abou Abbas. Il apparaît enfin au grand jour, avec sa tignasse et ses moustaches en crocs qui révèlent le chef de bande, l’irrégulier.
Il est né en 1948 dans le village de Tirat, près de Haïfa. Il a quitté la Palestine pour la Syrie à peine âgé de quelques jours. Dans un couffin. Noyé avec toute sa famille dans le grand exode palestinien. Il va entrer dans la carrière du terrorisme. Une profession d’avenir au Proche-Orient pour les jeunes ambitieux. Il est doué. C’est un combattant mais aussi un courtisan. Il est vite admis dans le premier cercle qui entoure Yasser Arafat. Celui du pouvoir et de l’argent. En 1977, il trahit le leader soupçonneux dont il a gagné la confiance. Il se sépare de l’OLP et fonde à Beyrouth le Front de Libération de la Palestine (FLP). Une organisation de francs-tireurs qui se dote d’ULM et de vedettes rapides pour harceler les unités de Tsahal. Il monte des coups médiatiques. C’est le cerveau. Malgorzata dirait: «Comme au cinéma».
Déçu par ses hommes, Abou Abbas est venu chercher à Port-Saïd une issue honorable pour son organisation. Son idée est simple: l’Egypte l’arrête, lui et son commando, et les laisse filer vers Tunis où Yasser Arafat, avec lequel Abou Abbas s’est peut-être déjà réconcilié, se montrera secourable. L’«Achille-Lauro» peut accoster à Port-Saïd, sous les acclamations des dockers, mais une partie serrée s’engage. L’ambassadeur des Etats-Unis au Caire, Nicholas Veliotes, est contre la libération du commando. Ronald Reagan est catégorique: on ne traite pas avec les terroristes, on les juge. Oui, mais sans tout de même se brouiller avec les pays arabes. L’ambassadeur d’Italie a son mot à dire, l’«Achille-Lauro» étant un bateau italien. Il exige que les terroristes soient extradés en Italie pour y être jugés. Mais Bettino Craxi, alors président du Conseil, et Giulio Andreotti, son ministre des Affaires étrangères, y tiennent-ils vraiment? Ils ont une politique arabe et ils ont peur des attentats. Quant à Hosni Moubarak, il joue la montre.
Au centre de la toile, Abou Abbas. Lui, l’infréquentable terroriste, il se frotte aux grands de ce monde. Il recueille des secrets qui le rendront difficile à amener devant un tribunal. Soudain, Hosni Moubarak tente de se débarrasser en douce de ce problème. Il met Abou Abbas et ses quatre tueurs dans un Boeing 737 qui décolle de la base d’El Maza en direction de Tunis. Après une concertation fiévreuse dans le bureau Ovale, Ronald Reagan donne l’ordre d’intercepter le Boeing d’EgyptAir. Des F14 Tomcat s’envolent aussitôt du porte-avions «Saratoga» et obligent l’appareil égyptien à se poser sur l’aéroport militaire de Sigonella, en Sicile. Abou Abbas s’évadera de sa prison italienne avant de se retrouver en Irak. Mais l’Amérique a montré les dents. Elle n’a pas supporté ce que les enquêteurs ont appris lorsqu’ils sont montés à bord de l’«Achille-Lauro» et qu’ils ont cherché Leon Klinghoffer en espérant encore le trouver vivant: qu’il avait été froidement abattu de deux balles dans la tête et que deux des otages avaient été contraints de le jeter à la mer avec son fauteuil.
Leon Klinghoffer devient alors héros et martyr. En 1990, Broadway lui consacre un opéra mis en scène par Peter Sellars («Death of Kling-hoffer») et Hollywood un film («"Achille-Lauro" Affair»). Un témoignage de piété mystique. En l’assassinant, ses meurtriers ont visé juste. Ils ont meurtri l’Amérique, l’image que l’Amérique se fait encore d’elle-même. Leon Klinghoffer incarne le rêve américain. C’est un citoyen exemplaire et responsable qui croit en la libre entreprise et qui a été récompensé de ses efforts. Il est trop beau pour être vrai. Klinghoffer, c’est un vieux film en noir et blanc où on pleure à la fin. L’Amérique ne peut pas l’oublier.

François Caviglioli

OK, so Achille Lauro = ABu Abbas, not Abu Nidal...

So, who is this ABu Nidal?


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Nov 2, 2004, 7:21 PM
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since this morning, I've been wondering why this thread. And in my mind, I was thinking about the Achille Lauro.
DO you remember the Achille Lauro? It was a ship which had been hijacked in the MEditerranean sea by palestinian terrorists, and I think people had been killed on it, but i'm not sure anymore. I'm gonna google that.
For me, Abu Nidal = Achille Lauro, and Abu Nidal was long considered as a terrorist by the French authorities? I'm gonna google that. ANd then discuss...
No that is Abu al-Abbas, who is mentioned above.


thomasribiere


Nov 2, 2004, 7:26 PM
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Abou Nidal est également mis en cause par la France dans l’attentat antijuif de la rue des Rosiers, qui fait 6 morts et 22 blessés en 1982 à Paris
OK, so I remember this bombing in Paris (I was 11) : it was in the jewish area of the center of the city... the radio, the the TV talked a lot of that at that time.
And ABu NIdal was the head of the Fatah, that's why I know his name.

So, what did you want to discuss?


maculated


Nov 2, 2004, 7:30 PM
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What do you say to the fact that the Americans also support terrorists? Just because middle eastern people support terrorists doesn't lump them into the "we good, they bad" category. Link it to Al Quaida, and then you're talking.


Partner tgreene


Nov 2, 2004, 7:32 PM
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What do you say to the fact that the Americans also support terrorists? Just because middle eastern people support terrorists doesn't lump them into the "we good, they bad" category. Link it to Al Quaida, and then you're talking.

If you follow the many links I posted, you'll see that I have... :wink:

In reply to:
This is the most compelling, and is a UK source:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...2/08/25/wnidal25.xml

In reply to:
Abu Nidal, the Palestinian terrorist, was murdered on the orders of Saddam Hussein after refusing to train al-Qa'eda fighters based in Iraq, The Telegraph can reveal.

Despite claims by Iraqi officials that Abu Nidal committed suicide after being implicated in a plot to overthrow Saddam, Western diplomats now believe that he was killed for refusing to reactivate his international terrorist network.

According to reports received from Iraqi opposition groups, Abu Nidal had been in Baghdad for months as Saddam's personal guest, and was being treated for a mild form of skin cancer.


Partner uitdoorqi


Nov 2, 2004, 9:23 PM
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Well, I've posted the conclusive evidence that the ties to terrorism did/do in fact exist

Please contact the Bush administration with your findings, apparently you found something they over looked and they need all the help they can get.

The administration has this evidence with ties to terrorism even to UBL. However, there's no strong proof of ties once UBL started Al-Qa'ida and targeted Americans.


Partner uitdoorqi


Nov 2, 2004, 9:28 PM
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Another one for the memory hole though, were the names of American Companies, who profitted, that did not appear in the CIA's publication. http://www.washingtonpost.com/...A16201-2004Oct7.html

Since these are violations of US law, the FBI is currently investigating these accusations. It's illegal for the CIA to release information on US entities gained from intelligence operations. Keep in mind, while Duelfer was the DCI Rep to the ISG, the Department of Defense really ran the operation.


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Nov 2, 2004, 9:52 PM
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Another one for the memory hole though, were the names of American Companies, who profitted, that did not appear in the CIA's publication. http://www.washingtonpost.com/...A16201-2004Oct7.html

Since these are violations of US law, the FBI is currently investigating these accusations. It's illegal for the CIA to release information on US entities gained from intelligence operations. Keep in mind, while Duelfer was the DCI Rep to the ISG, the Department of Defense really ran the operation.
Slow down, how many people on this site do you expect to know acronyms like DCI?

Hint: Dubya's daddy was one. Context may give it away anyways.


prufrock


Nov 2, 2004, 9:56 PM
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Well, I've posted the conclusive evidence that the ties to terrorism did/do in fact exist

Please contact the Bush administration with your findings, apparently you found something they over looked and they need all the help they can get.

The administration has this evidence with ties to terrorism even to UBL. However, there's no strong proof of ties once UBL started Al-Qa'ida and targeted Americans.

Do you mean Iraqi ties to OBL?

If so, we don't have that unless you abuse the word "ties." Al Queda and Iraqi intellignce had a few meetings years ago. They never went any where. Saddam rebuffed any offer OBL made for even the weakest of allegiance.

That is the evidence the US has on a bin Laden Iraq connection.

But it is unclear to me from your post, were you talking about something else?


monkey_toes


Nov 2, 2004, 9:57 PM
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Another one for the memory hole though, were the names of American Companies, who profitted, that did not appear in the CIA's publication. http://www.washingtonpost.com/...A16201-2004Oct7.html

Since these are violations of US law, the FBI is currently investigating these accusations. It's illegal for the CIA to release information on US entities gained from intelligence operations. Keep in mind, while Duelfer was the DCI Rep to the ISG, the Department of Defense really ran the operation.

Wouldn't these be violations of international law ??

Just curious.


Partner uitdoorqi


Nov 2, 2004, 10:05 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Another one for the memory hole though, were the names of American Companies, who profitted, that did not appear in the CIA's publication. http://www.washingtonpost.com/...A16201-2004Oct7.html

Since these are violations of US law, the FBI is currently investigating these accusations. It's illegal for the CIA to release information on US entities gained from intelligence operations. Keep in mind, while Duelfer was the DCI Rep to the ISG, the Department of Defense really ran the operation.

Wouldn't these be violations of international law ??

Just curious.

Yes, at least in terms of the UN. I can't recall a case where the UN has tried a corporation.

US entities will be facing action via the US legal system as we've already seen in several indictments of Americans working with the Iraqi Intel services. More to come.... On that note, will Americans just not care about this issue in a year or two?


Partner uitdoorqi


Nov 2, 2004, 10:10 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Well, I've posted the conclusive evidence that the ties to terrorism did/do in fact exist

Please contact the Bush administration with your findings, apparently you found something they over looked and they need all the help they can get.

The administration has this evidence with ties to terrorism even to UBL. However, there's no strong proof of ties once UBL started Al-Qa'ida and targeted Americans.

Do you mean Iraqi ties to OBL?

If so, we don't have that unless you abuse the word "ties." Al Queda and Iraqi intellignce had a few meetings years ago. They never went any where. Saddam rebuffed any offer OBL made for even the weakest of allegiance.

That is the evidence the US has on a bin Laden Iraq connection.

But it is unclear to me from your post, were you talking about something else?

Keep in mind, UBL wasn't always targeting America as his primary objective. The Iraqis were interested in his anti-Saudi stance, before 9/11, the Cole, and US Embassy bombings. Payback for Saudi support to the US in Gulf War I? Probably. Again, I'm not aware from public sources of much direct UBL/Iraqi Intel Service (IIS) links after Al-Qa'ida came into being. There may have been lower level contact but doubtful Saddam and UBL were in direct contact.


iltripp


Nov 2, 2004, 10:14 PM
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Saddam supported terrorism = justified war = liberalism becomes obsolete.


HAHAHAHA!!!! Sure cosmo, us liberals are gonna be completely outdated in no time.

STFU, you stupid troll....

There are many people on this board who I do not agree with (Tgreene, bumblie, TGT, and others), but I really don't have anything against them. Cosmokramer, on the other hand, is probably the most annoying rc.com member whose comments I have had the (dis)pleasure to read. You and fecalquisinart are cheap political trolls that do nothing more than post inflamatory remarks and ridiculous statements with no base other than your hate for the other side of the aisle. Go troll somewhere else.

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