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beyond_gravity
Jun 1, 2002, 7:35 PM
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I know you should allways have a backup when rapping with a pig, but how many sport/trad climbers use one? I never use one and find no need to use one because i'm allways undercontrol. should I be using one?
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clam
Jun 1, 2002, 9:57 PM
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Not sure about your question. I've never rapped with a pig. But, yes, I almost always use a brake hand backup ("third hand") when rappeling. I learned this the first time I climbed in Yosemite and it has been standard practice for me. If it's a real short rap at a local crag I may not use one. I also use gloves while rapping; if you're not careful things can get pretty hot. Be safe.
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ryanguy
Jun 1, 2002, 10:17 PM
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Sport climbing short pitches doesn't really warrant one I don't think but for bigger walls and long raps it is a really good idea. I use one when I am cleaning climbs and it is so convenient I use it others times as well. I use a short 8mm cord tied in a loop (2ft circumference). I then half hitch it around my leg loop, wrap the rope 2-3 times below my belay device and then clip the loose end to a locking biner on the same leg loop. It is quick and easy and requires only one hand to rap. Also, it doesn't get super tight after hanging. Maybe you weren't looking for a description but I like to ramble.
[ This Message was edited by: ryanguy on 2002-06-01 15:18 ]
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astone
Jun 1, 2002, 10:26 PM
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True Story:
My partner and I were a little dehydrated and tipsy after a fast climb in Sawtooths. We were at the last manky rap station on the way down, and I set up my ATC in preparation for heading down. As I leaned back one of the two strands of rope popped out of the ATC. No worries though, my trusty backup prussik knot had my back.
Your illusion of control is a function of many things: hydration, sugar level, fatigue etc. A 2ft. stretch of 5mm perlon can mean the difference between life and death should one of these factors fail you.
Have fun, astone
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jman
Jun 2, 2002, 12:29 AM
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I do the same thing as ryanguy stated above. I guess it doesn't make sense to not use a back up on shorter rapells cause you can still fall and get hurt. Personally if I'm rapelling anything higher than 30 feet high I always use a back up cause unexpected bad things can happen, especially on big wall and multipitch climbs. An experienced person should probably show you a good back up with a prussic cord.
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jmlangford
Jun 2, 2002, 2:08 AM
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I use a Petzl Shunt on all of my rappels. Make sure the rappel device is above any back-up. I wouldn't recommend a prusik as a back-up while rappelling because if it is loaded on rappel, especially while going over an overhang, it can be darn near impossible to free. See this article on rc.com for a story on a fatality caused in part by using a prusik as a back-up.
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-06-01 19:12 ]
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veilneb
Jun 2, 2002, 4:09 AM
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I use a Prusik (autoblock) on all my rappels. I place the Prusik below my rappel device so it is never above my hands and out of reach (as occured in the story). I also have the Prusik attached to my right leg loop, not around the chest. I have tested it a number of times (when I'm just a foot or two above the ground) and it has worked to stop my descent every time. I see this as an invaluable backup "third-hand."
Climb safe.
Veilneb
[ This Message was edited by: veilneb on 2002-06-01 21:10 ]
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beyond_gravity
Jun 2, 2002, 4:21 AM
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wouldnt the pursik get jammed in your atc?
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jmlangford
Jun 2, 2002, 4:41 AM
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I usually put my rappel device on a 12" runner and then clip the Shunt directly to my harness. This keeps them apart. I imagine this is what veilneb does with his prusik.
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ryanguy
Jun 2, 2002, 6:02 AM
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If you keep the prussik cord short there is little chance if any that it will get caught in your ATC. I first tried the system with an extension and then found that I didn't need it. One less piece of gear that can fail. And besides, a 7-8mm cord is too big to get caught in an ATC with a fat 10-11mm rope running through it. Unless of course you are rapping on an 8mm or smaller rope, scary.
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ktwo
Jun 3, 2002, 1:53 AM
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I have heard that there is a way to do this with a sling or webbing, but I can't remember how to do it. I tied it in regular prussik fassion, and it did not hold. Anyone know how to do it?
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tim
Jun 3, 2002, 2:25 AM
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1) if you're backing up a rap with a prussik loop or sling, you should be using a klemheist knot or an autoblock. Get a book on climbing or sailing knots if you don't know how to tie one, it's not my place to tell you, and you need to consult the illustrations anyways. The prussik knot is useless for slings, it won't "bite".
2) spider out your rap sling above you (if using the klemheist-backup method) and clip your rap device up there (the sling should be girth hitched about your swami-and-legloops junction). fasten the klemheist to your belay donut with a biner. Rap. The backup knot is now under your rap device and can be controlled under a roof (I rapped under Doug's Roof at the Gunks on Monday with this exact setup; worked fine, as it has before).
Having the backup knot below the rap device avoids the problem that led to the death of the climber in jmlangford's referenced article.
3) a shunt is probably better, but too heavy and expensive for my preferences. I feel safe with two strong loops holding me to the rope, and I maintain control of the system to minimize risk.
Quote:
I never use one and find no need to use one because i'm allways undercontrol.
I feel like you're underestimating the impact that objective hazards (eg. rockfall) could have on your rappel safety. If your arm gets broken by rockfall, you will have a great deal more trouble controlling your system without a backup.
You may find that you prefer more or less risk in exchange for more or less convenience/efficiency. That's your choice. Please just be well informed when making it, and try to consider the entire spectrum of risks you face, not just those involving "pilot error".
--tim
[ This Message was edited by: jabbeaux on 2002-06-02 19:29 ]
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arsenalcrater
Jun 3, 2002, 3:32 AM
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I usually just BASE jump after topping out. If I have to rap, then I just go for it.
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beyond_gravity
Jun 3, 2002, 3:37 AM
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arsenalcrater, after reading ur profile...I dont really trust any advice your giving
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arsenalcrater
Jun 3, 2002, 3:57 AM
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I wasn't giving any advice. I was just stating my preffered way to rap. It hasn't failed me yet. Well if it did, then you would not see such a post.
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beyond_gravity
Jun 4, 2002, 5:04 AM
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thanks stu, that cleared some stuff up for me
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