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chitowngirl
Nov 10, 2004, 4:48 AM
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I have one comment, and two topics on which I'd love some advice.
This past summer I had my first major accident when I was soloing a class IV. I put my hand on a boulder, got bit by a snake, jumped back, and took a head-over-heals tumble down a steep boulder strewn slope. I am really lucky to have come out as well as I did, but I did have a serious wound to my shoulder where a sharp bit of rock cut into it when I slammed into it, breaking my fall. I did my best to stop the bleeding by wrapping it up with cloth (I had no tape - big mistake). The snake bite, I didn't have a clue what to do with it, and just found out as the hours past that it wasn't venomous. I was about 6 hours from my car and civilization, so I started heading back and ran into 2 german climbers. I asked if they had any tape to spare and if they could help me dress it up better, and they told me they needed to save their tape in case they had an injury and they had very little, and that they hadn't any time to spare because they were running late for their attempt on the summit.
My comment: if you two are out there, thanks for your concern. All the way back to my car I was hoping and praying your summit attempt was successful (eh-hem). If you ever have an accident yourself I hope you are treated better by fellow climbers than you treated me.
I would love some thoughts from all of you on these issues: snake bites (or maybe even spider bites) and treating injuries like mine, where bleeding was a problem. Where can I learn more about snake bites and how to deal with them, recognize venomous snakes, etc., as well as how to deal with injuries when you are far away from a hospital. What have some of your own experiences been?
Thanks.
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kman
Nov 10, 2004, 5:07 AM
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In reply to: Fairly new to it all, and looking to learn all that I can as fast as I can.
Don't cut corners on the learning curve. SLOW DOWN!!!
Take a wilderness first aid course.
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onelung
Nov 10, 2004, 5:13 AM
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Animal Planet...I never miss an episode on Western snakes. And I live in a state that has No snakes.
Glad to hear your alright.
Cheers,
bill
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chitowngirl
Nov 10, 2004, 5:21 AM
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Don't cut corners on the learning curve. SLOW DOWN!!!
I know, Kman. Nothing like an accident to teach you that. I had had a really succesful run of things, for me, at least, just before the accident. So, I was feeling pretty cocky. That *&%$%* snake gave me back some humility. And taught me that no matter how prepared you think you are, something unexpected can turn everything on it's head.
Good idea about the first aid course. I'll do it.
Thanks.
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walrus
Nov 10, 2004, 5:24 AM
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Es tut mir leid. Sorry about the Deutschlanders. You could have had all my tape and I would have made sure you received medical attention. I have had strangers offer me water while hiking down(easy) into the Grand Canyon before!
There are several decent first aid kits out there in different sizes from solo to group. Adventure Medical Kits and Atwater Carey are two of the nicer upper end brands. You really shouldn't skimp when it comes to your health. Generaly the group size just has more but sometimes they include extras like splints and dental kits. Also, there are some small pocket sized outdoor first aid books of the same brands. that are excellent.
You can always add to your kit with sam splints, snake bit kits, tick removers, large bandages and whatever else(tape) fits your situation and climate. You can get and customize a solo kit for around $40. I also carry a small survival kit that has a lot of stuff in a small package.
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/campmor/iphrase.jsp?command=text&text=first+aid
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sherpa
Nov 10, 2004, 5:29 AM
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i would suggest taking a Wilderness First Responder course for life saving information and skills for treating injuries and medical conditions in a backcountry setting. They will cover snake and spider bites as well. If you are looking for more information on ID of venemous snakes and spiders check out some field guides for snakes or spiders from the library or go to a barnes and noble. I recomend the WFR if you're going to be in the backcountry much at all. They teach you so much for dealing with crazy situations in the backcountry and how to improvise with the equipment you have with you. I recomend taking it through Aerie Backcountry Medicine, but other places like NOLS does that kind of thing as well. I've taken Wilderness First Aid through Aerie and am working on my Wilderness EMT right now with them. They do a great job of giving you practical applications and bring it down to a level that is easy to understand. Hope that helps. Cheers.
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sherpa
Nov 10, 2004, 5:34 AM
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Oh, and don't buy the snake bite kits. they're bull$h!t. Especially the ones with the blades. don't cut yourself up man. Sawyer extractors haven't even been shown to do anything. 25% of all venomous snake bites are dry bites (they don't inject any venom). So that means that any snake bite kit that you use will work 25% of the time right?! Nice sales gimmick huh.
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basecamp
Nov 10, 2004, 6:19 AM
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In reply to: Oh, and don't buy the snake bite kits. they're bull$h!t. Especially the ones with the blades. don't cut yourself up man. Sawyer extractors haven't even been shown to do anything. 25% of all venomous snake bites are dry bites (they don't inject any venom). So that means that any snake bite kit that you use will work 25% of the time right?! Nice sales gimmick huh.
Well then if 25% of all snake bites are dry... wouldn't that mean that the snake bite kit would work 75% of the time... hopefully. Having a kit the size of a bandaide box on you just in case you get bitten by a venomous snake is a hell of a lot better idea than not having it. I used to climb in an area that had a ton of rattlers in the area. I myself am afraid of snakes, the one and only thing in this world I'm afraid of... but I have also learned that normally they don' want to bite you as much as you don't want to be bitten.
as for your post chitowngirl it sounds like a $hitty deal you had there... those germans should have been more concerned with human life than with a summit attempt. Had it been me out there you certainly would have had the best attention. I think the worst thing that happened to me was I got attacked by a small swarm of hornets... they were just building there hive and I came upon it on a top rope and I stuck my hand in the same bucket they had there hive started in... and they sure didn't like that. So I had my belayer dirt me quickly, got a stung twice. Thankfully there were only 3 or 4 hornets there.
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jefffski
Nov 10, 2004, 7:51 AM
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they are the worst type of climbers. shame on them.
when is a summit ever worth the safety of another human being?
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coldclimb
Nov 10, 2004, 8:59 AM
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In reply to: they are the worst type of climbers. shame on them. when is a summit ever worth the safety of another human being?
Word. Especially tape that you want to keep "in case". Sheesh. :(
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maxdacat
Nov 10, 2004, 9:53 AM
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sounds like a real double whammy of an accident....and then meeting those selfish krauts on the way out.
As for the snake maybe take a leaf out of Steve Irwin's book (aka the croc hunter) and stick your thumb up its asshole!
but seriously i think a pressure bandage and immobilising the limb is the way to go these days.....no sucking out the poison or tourniquets.
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aikibujin
Nov 10, 2004, 12:57 PM
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This reminds me of an incident I read in the 2000 issue of Accidents in North American Mountaineering (P27-28).
A climber (S. Tamoi) attempted to solo the West Buttress on Mt. McKinley in May. Tamoi reached the summit, but collapsed on the way down, possibly due to fatigue and inadequate food and water. Another solo climber (M. Krissak) came upon the scene when he noticed a group of five climbers standing around Tamoi. As Krissak approached, the group of five left Tamoi behind and continued on :!:. Krissak assisted Tamoi in descending by supporting him under his shoulder. They met two more three-person groups on the descent, Krissak asked both group for assistance and was refused both times :!:. After a long and slow descent, involving a dangerous unroped traverse over Denali Pass, Krissak was able to help Tamoi to the 17,200-foot camp, where a volunteer NPS ranger and a Alaska Air National Guardsman at the camp were able to offer assistance.
It made me sick to my stomach after reading this incident. In the ANAM editorial analysis, this was offered, "... Without the persistent efforts of Krissak, Tamoi would certainly have been left for dead. Krissak risked his own life where others refused under the harsh conditions. It is hard to blame these other climbers, as sometimes it's just about impossible to help someone if you feel your own life at risk ..." However, when a solo climber was willing and able to save someone's life, while the groups with more manpower refused to help... there's just something really wrong about it. The second group's reason for not helping was "they were cold and needed to keep going down". :x
We all know that climbing is very much a selfish pursuit. But when in a position to help someone, possibly to save someone's life, there will be those who are heros, and there will be those who are cowards. I'm sorry that you had to meet the selfish cowards.
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thedesertnomad
Nov 10, 2004, 2:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Oh, and don't buy the snake bite kits. they're bull$h!t. Especially the ones with the blades. don't cut yourself up man. Sawyer extractors haven't even been shown to do anything. 25% of all venomous snake bites are dry bites (they don't inject any venom). So that means that any snake bite kit that you use will work 25% of the time right?! Nice sales gimmick huh. Well then if 25% of all snake bites are dry... wouldn't that mean that the snake bite kit would work 75% of the time... hopefully. Having a kit the size of a bandaide box on you just in case you get bitten by a venomous snake is a hell of a lot better idea than not having it. I used to climb in an area that had a ton of rattlers in the area.
The thought is smart to be prepared, but you have approx. 7 seconds to respond to "catch" the venom. I know for a fact that if I JUST got bitten by a snake... realizing that it was venemous, whipping out the kit, cutting myself, sucking out poison (if it actually works) eats up more than 7 seconds.
Living in the Southwest I see rattlesnakes almost EVERY time that I go out. I don't bother them they (usually) don't bother me. Only 1 in a thousand people die from rattler bites in the US, but they do horrific topical tissue and nerve damage, so one must beware. In a poisonous snake bite one should try to keep the heart rate as low as possible, and get to med. attention as quickly as possible... I know, I know... how quick can you go when you don't want to raise the heart rate... lol Oh and be considerably more careful around smaller, younger rattlesnakes (maybe other venemous ones, but I don't know) as they tend to inject ALL the venom they have instead of rationing it out like their elders.
As far as the initial question... yeah get in some wilderness first aid or first responder courses... they are FANTASTIC
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adeptus
Nov 10, 2004, 3:00 PM
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I was on the Brenva Spur of Mont Blanc this summer. Just under the summit seracs there was a group of four Czechs climbers, who had been on route for 20 hours and couldn’t get pass the last steep section. One of them had hypothermia and couldn’t move. My climbing partner and I came across them at 3 o’clock at night. We gave them an astro blanket and a warm drink and then took their rope and ice screws and climbed up and fixed the rope above the crux part and continued over the top. There we met some Spanish climber who had a mobile phone that we used to call a helicopter. 15 minuets later it came and got the hypothermic climber off the mountain and we later saw the others climb up the fixed rope. So everybody was safe and we even had our summit. Even though we could barely communicate (5 different nationalities were involved) we were able to help each other out without a second though.
That’s what the climbing community is supposed to be like.
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walrus
Nov 10, 2004, 4:59 PM
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In reply to: We all know that climbing is very much a selfish pursuit. But when in a position to help someone, possibly to save someone's life, there will be those who are heros, and there will be those who are cowards. I'm sorry that you had to meet the selfish cowards. |
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sherpa
Nov 10, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: Well then if 25% of all snake bites are dry... wouldn't that mean that the snake bite kit would work 75% of the time... hopefully. Having a kit the size of a bandaide box on you just in case you get bitten by a venomous snake is a hell of a lot better idea than not having it. I used to climb in an area that had a ton of rattlers in the area. I myself am afraid of snakes, the one and only thing in this world I'm afraid of... but I have also learned that normally they don' want to bite you as much as you don't want to be bitten.
basecamp, i don't think you understand what I'm saying. snakebite kits are NOT EFFECTIVE. if they do not work at all they can advertise that they work at least 25% of the time. Look you could even start your own method, say....take a cig and burn the area and then put on some peanut butter and cover with duct tape. it would work 25% of the time because of dry bites, although it is an entirely uneffective treatment. understand now? My advice...don't elevate the injured area. move it as little as possible to keep the toxin as localized as possible. splint the area and get to a medical facility. You're most likely not going to die from a poisonous snake bite. I know rattlers well from working in the western mojave.
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cbare
Nov 18, 2004, 6:58 AM
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First of I would like to say that I am sorry obut the unforgivable
behavior of the other two climbers that did not help you. I am glad
that everything turned out ok. I would like to present some
information regarding snakes and bites. Sometimes my posts are a
little long, but what the heck the more information people have, the
better equipped they are to handle problems.
Venomous sknake are a problem world wide, however, Australia has over
20% of all the world's venomous snakes. All of you Australians be
safe, because in addition Australia has about 40% of the worlds
neurotoxic (alteres the nervous system--really bad snakes) snakes.
Ok, back to the point, I will focus on bites in the USA, but be aware
that there are snakes everywhere and if people would like I could
write a full length article on the various types of venomous snake
bites around the world.
In North Americia snake bites rarely cause death only around 20 deaths
a year. (reported that is) Very young people, elderly people, and
people with health problems are at most risk for death or serious
problems. On the good side, only around 20% of snake bites in the USA
are a result of venomous snakes. As stated in prior posts,
Rattlesnakes do not inject venom in about 20% of bites. In the USA
the vast majority of bites are a result of pit vipers. (Crotalidae)
Usually the Rattlesnake, Cottonmouth, or Copperhead is the culpurit.
They are called pit vipers because they have 2 small pits, one near
each eye, that help the snake find prey by sensing heat of the
potential snack. The other venomous snake bites occur from the
Eastern and Texas coral snakes. (only about 5% of bites) These along
with Cobras & Mambas are members of the (Elapidae) family and secrete
highly toxic neurovenom. I will focus on pit viper bites.
Identification of pit vipers can be difficult at best, especially if
you have just been bit and are now taking a fall as a result. But,
here goes. Pit vipers usually have a large triangular head with an
eliptical pupil. There will usually be a single row of scales on the
bottom of the snake near the tail, and of course the rattle snake will
have a rattle. Need I say if you can see all of this you may be too
close.
Signs and symptoms of the bite can be broken into 3 categories. Right
after the bite, the first 2 days, and the next several days. I will
focus on the early signs and symptoms. The most odvious problem is
anaphylactic or allergic shock. Sudden breathing difficulty, hives
all over the body, and swelling all over the body indicate allergic
shock. This will kill you very quickly and the only thing that will
help is a shot of epinephrine. Taking a dose of
benadryl/diphenhydramine may help a little, but it may be hard to
swallow with a swollen throat. Immediate medical attention is needed!
The first signs and symptoms following bite are, sudden onset sharp,
burning, and severe pain at the bite site, severe headache, vomiting,
rapid swelling at the bite site, and you will usually have two
puncture marks like a vampire with Pit Viper bites. Usually being the
key word. The first several hours to the next two days signs and
symptoms include, chills, persistant nausea and vomiting, severe
thirst, persistant headache, and continued severe pain to bitten area
with lots of swelling. In severe cases the body can react to the
venom by altering it's circulatory system. The body becomes prone to
bleeding and you may notice spider web like blotches of the body and
can even develop severe internal bleeding. Another complication of
the bite is caused by tissue death. Since the venom acts directly on
tissue by breaking it down and other chemical processes, the by
products of the dead tissue can clog the kidney and cause kidney
failure. However, allot of people make a full recover from Pit Viper bites.
Treatment initially involves trying to keep the limb still and
immobile and not elevating for odvious reasons. Suctioning is still
controversial and nearly all agree that it really is not helpful after
a few minutes. Nearly all experts agree that applying constricting
bands and or making incisions into the skin can be harmful. In
addition, take any jewlery off of the limb, as swelling will constrict
circulation. (and tyically there is allot of swelling) If possible
measure the circumference of the extremity about 2 inches above the
bite toward the body every several minutes. Most important is to seek
medical attention if you think you have been bitten by a poisionus
snake. At the hospital you will get an iv in the unaffected arm and
may get antivenom. Just remember that people can have problems with
antivenom, allergic reaction, severe nausea and vomiting, worsened
problems with the bite just to name a few. Your urine out put will be
monitored and you may be given other medications to help your
circulatory system and antibiotics to prevent or treat infection.
Make shure your teatnus shot is up to date as well. 5-10 years
depending on the expert. I tend to say 5 or if your not quite shure,
no harm in getting one any way.
I could go on and on, but I hope this basic information helped.
Thanks,
Chris Bare.
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danpayne
Nov 18, 2004, 7:53 AM
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In reply to: Living in the Southwest I see rattlesnakes almost EVERY time that I go out. I don't bother them they (usually) don't bother me.
Wow, I guess all the rattlers are in Mesa, I'm in north phoenix, I go hiking and climbing quite a bit, and have yet to see a rattlesnake. Not saying you're wrong, I just thought that was strange. Another interesting thing about rattlesnakes is that 95% of bites occur when someone trys to handle the snake. Talk about poetic justice.
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walrus
Nov 18, 2004, 11:54 PM
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I was waiting for someone to apply that actually knew a lot. From what I read most first aid steps include wrapping an ace bandage above and below the wound. Any thoughts on this?
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chitowngirl
Nov 19, 2004, 5:43 PM
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I'm thankful that so many of you have replied or PM'd me with helpful info. To some extent, though, it seems like there is not really much you can do until you get to a hospital. Wrap it above the wound, keep it below your heart, and get medical attention asap. I think I woulda been screwed if it had actually been a venomous snake, or if it was venomous and released venom. I could only catch a glipse of it before I fell, and all I could tell was that it was brownish and kinda small. Judging from the puncture wounds it had to have been a small snake, or a young snake.
If anything like this ever happens again (I hope to God it doesn't), I at least now have a heads up on what I can do. Hopefully if anything ever happens like this to any of you you'll be better prepared than I was. And recieve better care from fellow climbers!
Thanks.
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dingus
Nov 19, 2004, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: In North Americia snake bites rarely cause death only around 20 deaths a year.
Oh man, I have been trying to avoid a snake rant, but I think my head is gonna explode!
So more people die choking on popcorn every year in the US than they do from snake bites. And still the hysteria and primal fear of snakes, and the attendant over-reactions.
Snakes, poisonous or not, are simply not a big danger. Period. But still people kill them for no good reason. Just like they used to kill wolves.
It makes me sad...
Leave them snakes alone.
DMT
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dingus
Nov 19, 2004, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: Wow, I guess all the rattlers are in Mesa, I'm in north phoenix, I go hiking and climbing quite a bit, and have yet to see a rattlesnake. Not saying you're wrong, I just thought that was strange. Another interesting thing about rattlesnakes is that 95% of bites occur when someone trys to handle the snake. Talk about poetic justice.
Yup. Typically the only people who see snakes are those who go looking for them. Here's a classic snake tale from your backyard dude.
I used to do a lot of work in Phoenix and came to enjoy after work hikes up Camelback. What a great workout for a mountaineer! Anyway, one evening I lingered on the summit till the sun set and it got half dark. Wanted to see the Valley of the Sun by the lights of the city. It looked just like Hollywood! Wasn't as good as the time Burl and I climbed a tower on the Williamsburg Bridge to see Manhattan right there in our faces on a clear night, (Surely one of the 7 manmade wonders of the world?) but it was pretty powerful nevertheless.
Anyway, by the time I got down the gully and approached the saddle, it was pitch dark (cept for the glow of the city). I was making haste and literally ran into a group of hikers huddled together in the middle of the trail. I actually bumped into this dude before I saw him, startling us all.
I offered a brusque, "Excuse me!" When I get in righteous trail mode I get this way. The response still gets me chuckling all these years later,
"We heard a snake rattle on the trail ahead of us. It may still be there." They had been standing there in the dark, paralyzed by fear, for like 20 minutes! I just COULD NOT believe it. So I dingus'd them:
"What EVER." I declared in disgust and bulled on through the group, walked over the 'snake' that wasn't there and went down the guard rails. Never saw or heard those people again. Perhaps they are still up there.
Anyway, that's a lot of words used to describe "irrational fear."
Irrational fears in climbers, yuk! Deal with it snake chickens! Snakes are people too you know.
DMT
ps told you I felt a snake rant coming on!
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thedesertnomad
Nov 19, 2004, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Living in the Southwest I see rattlesnakes almost EVERY time that I go out. I don't bother them they (usually) don't bother me. Wow, I guess all the rattlers are in Mesa, I'm in north phoenix, I go hiking and climbing quite a bit, and have yet to see a rattlesnake. Not saying you're wrong, I just thought that was strange. Another interesting thing about rattlesnakes is that 95% of bites occur when someone trys to handle the snake. Talk about poetic justice.
I do most of my hiking in the Superstitions and see them all the time without looking for them. I have only been concerned about the black tails that I see in Lower Devil's Canyon (all the time) they are the most timid snakes... which can be good that they typically won't strike, but also bad because they tend to NOT LET YOU KNOW THEY ARE THERE.
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chronicle
Nov 19, 2004, 7:53 PM
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Chitowngirl, if you had ran into me, I would have given you everything I had to make sure you were safe. That goes for any climber. You can have everything in my first-aid kit, the shirt off my back, my boots, whatever it takes. Forget the summit or the climb, if you need help, I would personally assist you down the mountain, even drive you to the hospital. Why? Because that's the same treatment I would want if I were I needed medical attention. Whether you have a flapper and need a bandage, or severe head trauma and need a hospital, I will do everything in my power to help you out (even if that means not summitting, not climbing, or calling off work to assist you). I guess I was always taught "Treat others the same as you would want to be treated."
Some people are A$$HOLES whether you meet them on a mountain or not. Sorry that you had to meet them in that situation. Glad that you are OK.
I take a first-aid/CPR course every February just as a refresher, and always carry at least a small first aid kit.
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chitowngirl
Nov 20, 2004, 2:57 AM
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-Leave them snakes alone.-
It's not like I was out looking to bother the snake, nor was the snake looking to bother me. We just had an unfortunate encounter, probably not pleasant for either one of us.
I don't really understand the two snake rants. I wasn't scared of snakes before, and I'm not now. Nor does anybody who posted anything impress me as being scared of snakes, or hating snakes, or out to kill snakes. But, if you're out somewhere and get bit by one, you'd be a fool not to be concerned (unless you know it wasn't venomous), and you'd also be a fool to have it happen to you once, and not learn anything from it. So, I want to learn what I can, so I'll know what to do next it happens to me or anybody else, and if any of you out there don't know what to do in that situation, hopefully you'll learn before you need to know it too.
Nobody's raggin' on snakes,man. Chill out.
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