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ikellen
Dec 1, 2004, 6:39 PM
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I am planning to do some alpine ascents in the sierras next spring/summer, and Im currently looking at what gear I should get beforehand. I currently use a Maxum 9.8mm 60m rope, but I have been contimplating doubles for doing alpine ascents. What are the benefits of using doubles? Do they offer a weight decrease compared to one single rope? Or should I stick to my single rope?
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jasper
Dec 1, 2004, 6:57 PM
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Points to consider,
Total weight is more, but you can split weight between 2 people.
Easier if climbing in three's
Longer raps
Great on wandering routes.
Lower impact forces if you're on sh!t gear.
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tradklime
Dec 1, 2004, 8:34 PM
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Twins, shoulder length runners, and a couple of screamers- good to go.
Likely, some rappels will require 2 ropes
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takeme
Dec 1, 2004, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: I am planning to do some alpine ascents in the sierras next spring/summer, and Im currently looking at what gear I should get beforehand. I currently use a Maxum 9.8mm 60m rope, but I have been contimplating doubles for doing alpine ascents. What are the benefits of using doubles? Do they offer a weight decrease compared to one single rope? Or should I stick to my single rope?
"Alpine Ascents"--that's a pretty broad term. I climb mostly alpine rock (rather than winter ascents, mixed climbed, glacier travel, etc.), and tend to gravitate toward more sustained routes rather than, say, ridges. So my advice is derived from those experiences.
I will say I used to be very much of the "one single rope + healthy dose of commitment" school, varying from that only when hauling a pack seemed necessary, or double rope rappels were mandatory. I was perfectly happy with this set-up for quite some time until two bad experiences. They involved epic one-rope retreats from high up with no fixed anchors, both occuring from the same spot on the same route and both due to circumstances beyond my control. After the second time, I invested in a set of doubles (8.1s) and for the most part, I love 'em. I spent a few weeks in the Wind Rivers this summer doing some fairly obscure routes, and sure enough, eventually encountered a route where we had to bail from 3/4 of the way up the route, with no fixed anchors, wandering pitches, etc. We would have lost half our rack and still had an scary epic with one rope; with 2 60s, we left 2 nuts, a bit of webbing, and a couple biners.
Of course, they're also great for the all-too-common wandering alpine lead, and they're light in the pack for approaches (when compared to a single + trail line set-up). The one thing I still haven't quite gotten used to is leading at my limit on doubles--for that I want to have a belayer who I feel is very experienced with the system. Overall I'm ecstatic though.
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paulraphael
Dec 1, 2004, 9:37 PM
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I haven't started using doubles (half ropes) for alpine yet, but i'm considering it. Part of it is that so many routes have full length rapells, and the alternative is a single rope plus a skinny trail line. A pair of the lightest half ropes is usually lighter than this combination. And if you get a rope stuck, having a pair of lead ropes gives you more options for getting out of trouble.
Also, I find that a lot of the alpine routes I've climbed wander a lot. This is where doubles shine. And if you climb where there are sharp edges or lots of rockfall, 2 is safer than 1.
My hesitation is price, and also speed of rope handling. I'm not a genius when it comes to fast handling of a single rope, and I hesitate do anything to slow myself down more or make things more complicated.
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tradklime
Dec 1, 2004, 11:28 PM
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Lighter weight and simplicity in rope handling is where twins shine. Also, you aren't falling on one skinny line, you are falling on two (albeit even skinnier).
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davidji
Dec 1, 2004, 11:45 PM
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In reply to: I haven't started using doubles (half ropes) for alpine yet, but i'm considering it. |
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cire
Dec 2, 2004, 1:54 AM
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Just remeber unless you clip both ropes into the biner you are only getting the fall rating of the single line ie. 8m or 8.1m minus some friction being taken up by the other rope running through the biners. Also consider that speed is a factor in alpine climbing, unless you climb with double ropes all the time you will be slower. You will also be a heavier climber ie. pack, boots and all. Consider this a black diamond rope 10.2m weights 64g/m along with a 6.0m weights 23g/m thats a total of 87g/m were as a 8.1m rope weights 42g/m x 2 equals a total of 84 g/m. You could go with a 9.8m on the above combination. Not much difference for the added security of a heavier lead rope.
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takeme
Dec 2, 2004, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: Just remeber unless you clip both ropes into the biner you are only getting the fall rating of the single line ie. 8m or 8.1m minus some friction being taken up by the other rope running through the biners. Also consider that speed is a factor in alpine climbing, unless you climb with double ropes all the time you will be slower.
I disagree. I never climb with doubles outside of long alpine routes, but I've never had any problems handling the ropes or with any other issues that would decrease speed.
As far as 8.1s go (these are about the skinniest doubles made)--they do seem very skinny when you first start leading on them, and it's a little unnerving. After catching a 15 footer on one strand--which did not seem noticeably longer than a fall from the same spot on a single rope would have been-- I became far less paranoid.
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sspssp
Dec 2, 2004, 4:47 PM
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If you get doubles, I would suggest you try them on some short multi-pitch routes before you get into a commiting alpine environment.
A belay device for skinny ropes, such as the jaws or reversi, is a good idea also.
I used to climb on doubles a lot and eventually gave it up, but each set up has tradeoffs and doubles have advantages and disadvantages like everything else.
Another option to consider for the alpine environment is to go with a single long (and fairly skinny) rope like a 70m. This allows for 35 meter raps, with no knot to catch or knock rocks loose (a big deal in many apline settings). A lot of times you won't want to rap further than this in one rap because of difficulty pulling the rope or getting it stuck. The down side is you have to pull up the extra rope at every belay.
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watchme
Dec 2, 2004, 4:54 PM
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For alpine rock climbs I prefer a single lead cord, and then bring up an 8mil tag line for rapping. I keep the rap line in my pack rather than hauling it on the back of my harness.
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cire
Dec 2, 2004, 6:05 PM
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Hard to believe you would be faster handling two rope verses one rope at a time. Also more to think about and keep track of. As far as rapping If you are talking about the Cascades, Alaska, Canda and such there are no set rap stations. There are many rap slings left by many parties, topos are usually hard to follow, routes are usually done clean. So to bail you will most likely rap from anything and leave gear so rap lengths are not written in stone, but hey!! You are going to make it to the summit and most are walk offs. with short raps.
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takeme
Dec 2, 2004, 9:04 PM
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In reply to: Hard to believe you would be faster handling two rope verses one rope at a time.
It's not completely clear to me what you mean by that, but I've never said that using double ropes is faster than climbing with only one rope. For me it's definitely as fast, though--it's really not that hard after you're used to it. And it's usually faster than climbing with a lead + tag line, depending what you're doing with the tag line. I stack my doubles together and I've never had any problems with tangling there. You can in quite rare situations get wierd drag when the doubles twist around each like DNA other while you're leading.
I have had tangling problems a couple times when using a tag line though. Also, it takes extra time to haul up the tag line, especially if it's attached to a pack. If you put your tag line in the pack, then those issues are moot, but of course you'll have a heavier pack. I've also found doubles helpful when setting up belays (if swapping leads). Makes for a quick and highly effective way to equalize pieces, if you're not using a cordalette.
Clearly I'm partial to doubles for alpine but ultimately it comes down to what you and your partner are most comfortable with. I've certainly ceded to my partner's wishes when they haven't wanted to use doubles. Every system has trade-offs; for me, I'm still more comfortable pushing my limits on a single rope. For someone else, doubles might be a rope managment hassle. On the Diamond on Longs Peak I still like to lead on a single and haul a pack on most routes. This is because pitches are steep and sustained, and the crux pitches are at or near my limit. My partner actually had to talk me into using doubles up there last summer.
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davidji
Dec 2, 2004, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: [For me it's definitely as fast, though--it's really not that hard after you're used to it. And it's usually faster than climbing with a lead + tag line, depending what you're doing with the tag line. I stack my doubles together and I've never had any problems with tangling there. You can in quite rare situations get wierd drag when the doubles twist around each like DNA other while you're leading.
I've made some half-ropes incredibly kinky by coiling them repeatedly in a mountaineers coil, and that's led to a few epic untangling adventures. Don't know the solution there. The mountaineers coil does bad things to skinny ropes, but it's the most comfortable way I know to carry a rope for several hours without carrying it in a pack. Anyway if you don't do what I did, rope management shouldn't be a big deal.
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