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off_route
Dec 5, 2004, 1:24 AM
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I keep looking at Big Bros, and thinking they are really cool and innovative. My question is, are they useful? I'm starting out on trad and climbing wussy 5.6-5.7 stuff on lead. Sometimes though I come to a wider area in the crack and think, "If I had a huge piece it might work here."
Do those of you who have them use them? Do you have to be an off-width wedgie to use them?
Off_Route
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petsfed
Dec 5, 2004, 2:14 AM
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At this stage in your climbing career, big bros are next to useless. Get big cams instead. Big Bros are great if you have aspirations of fat crack greatness but are too difficult to work with if you don't already have some skill in offwidths. They are practical on squeeze chimneys, but I should imagine you don't encounter too many of them in your neck of the woods. When you start sending routes that involve considerable sustained offwidth climbing, then start thinking about big bros.
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geezergecko
Dec 5, 2004, 2:16 AM
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Funny about that. I use my #2 Big Bro a lot when climbing really easy stuff, 5.4 and below. Seems to always be a wide crack somewhere on the wimp routes. An easy stance helps as Big Bros are more fiddly to place than cams.
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holdplease2
Dec 5, 2004, 2:25 AM
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I have a set of big bros.
I do not recommend getting them unless you will be climbing sustained chimneys or wider cracks. Even then, I prefer big cams to supplement big bros.
I find them difficult to place with one hand. And difficult to place with both hands. Additionally, they are not confidence-inspiring unless the crack is perfectly paralell sided. Even better if there is a bump of rock to place in the end of the tube. I find that this is rare.
In places like vedawoo they are invaluable. Anywhere else? You will probably not use them enough to get comfortable enough to use them enought to make it worth the investment. (did you get that? Good. Sorry)
There are probalby four people who use them on this site regularly. All four will pipe up with a response in this thread. They are not the majority.
Anyway, good luck.
-Kate.
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climbhoser
Dec 5, 2004, 2:57 AM
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the Woo or Lumpy...Well used in Red Rocks, Yos and Squamish as well, depending on the climb.
I think they're a nag unless you're specifically climbing squeeze chimneys or offwidths. Might be plenty o' places for 'em on easy stuff, but they ain't worth it
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vegastradguy
Dec 5, 2004, 3:07 AM
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and here i thought i was in the majority!
actually, i dont use the bros all that much, although i do own a set, including the 'trophy' bro (the #5, expands out to 18", which is ridiculous, if you ask me...)
they are genuinely a specialty piece and if you love to climb wide stuff, they are valuable, esp. because for their size, they are far lighter and less bulky than a cam of the same size, not to mention cheaper.
i do have one project that i even borrowed a bro for, but i havent gotten around to it yet. always seem to find something better to do than scrape up a 200' overhanging offwidth. haha.
see holdplease2's post for their limitations.
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jakedatc
Dec 5, 2004, 4:33 AM
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hehe i gotta pitch in for Grant's sake... he'll place one on a 5.7 sport route if given the chance :)
http://img.photobucket.com/.../Rumney/P1010004.jpg
*ahem* [yorkshire canadian accent]"don't tell me i can't place a foookin big bro on a sport route" [/accent]
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bigevilgrape
Dec 5, 2004, 4:35 AM
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Best picture evar.
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holdplease2
Dec 5, 2004, 5:14 AM
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BTW John...
I will be heading to Zion thru Vegas in a week or so...any chance I could borrow that Bro again and my Blue one? The nemisis is calling...
I will drop them back off for you on my way back thru...pretty please? Also, I picked up the Christmas gift we talked about. :)
Big Bro's are only useful when you might die without one. That's my conclusion. Guess the same might be said of all climbing gear. ;)
-Kate.
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karlbaba
Dec 5, 2004, 6:18 AM
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In my opinion, the role of big Bros is when an offwidth is so long and sustained, that you can't carry all the big cams you need, so you bring some big bro's to leave as pro.
There are some other circumstances too but, particularly if you are starting out on OW, big cams are way, way better.
Particulary since you can push em up the crack above you and have a running top rope while you are otherwise suffering.
And if you find your technique needs much more work you can have a running rest/hand hold as well.
Peace
karl
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euroford
Dec 6, 2004, 4:42 PM
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they have thier place surely, but before even considering them you should have some big cams first. consider getting the wild country #5 and #6 tech friends. the new bd c4's look pretty cool in the big sizes as well, i'm not a fan of the two biggest camelots though.
when you get in a wide spot you can slid the appropriote sized big cam along above you. i would imagine big bro's are best used as pieces to leave behind on very long pitchs while continueing to slide the cam along.
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killclimbz
Dec 6, 2004, 4:54 PM
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I would say if you are seriously getting into climbing offwidths and chimneys than it would be worth your while to have big bros. As mentioned you would also need some large cams.
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hosh
Dec 6, 2004, 5:32 PM
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this post was interesting. I'm looking to be climbing some off width stuff this summer (I've never done any OW before) and I was thinking about Big Bros. It helps to have some banter to make a decision...
Hosh.
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robdotcalm
Dec 6, 2004, 5:59 PM
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I can't add too much to the sensible advice already received except for one thing. One can learn to set cams quite quickly. It takes practice to learn how to set Big Bros. Best advice is to place them in cracks off the ground where you can safely tug or jump on them to see how they hold.
cheers, rob.cal
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dirtineye
Dec 6, 2004, 7:19 PM
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Don't stand on em.
Don't put a sling around the tube.
Be sure you sling em right. (they come unslung and you have to thread your cord correctly, it's kind of a weak BBIQ test)
Don't extend em too far.
Don't forget to tighten the lock ring. One day they will make that ring a little more user friendly.
Practice makes perfect, and you really need to get them right before you have to depend on em. Ditto on the ground practice
When you need one, you really need it.
The little ones are a waste of money, get the three biggest ones (3,4,5) if you get any. Maybe the 5 is rediculous, like someone said, so maybe just get the 3 and 4 doubled, cause you will need more than one to get very far.
You can place em in horizontals too, but you need a multi-directional bomber placement.
The number 5 and 6 friends are great cams, but the green BB and up have much more range than you will get from a number 6 Friend.
Best BB placement is ends in depressions or over bumps on solid rock. otherwise they cam into place as the ends are like french cut green beans. downward pressure on the sling end cams em into a parallel slot. The BB in a perfectly vertical crack will cam in at a slight angle, with the sling end a little higher than the base end. If it is rocking or rolling, you have a bad placement. If the ends are not touching all the way around, you could have trouble. Someone described placing BBs as fiddly, and that's usually the case.
Given this description of how they work, you can probably figure out that you do not want to pull out (or any way but down) on one, unless it is in the afore mentioned bomber multidirectional placement.
On most climbs, Really big pro is usually not essential, but if you have it, you will find uses for it that may sometimes free up a smaller placement for a hand or foot. Big pro does not usually take up handholds, and taht can be a hidden blessing.
They also make interesting conversation pieces and mediocre wind chimes.
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karlbaba
Dec 6, 2004, 7:57 PM
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One advantage of big bros, on the other hand, is that they can block the rope from pushing your other cams deep into the crack. Keep that purpose in mind when the crack changes angle for instance.
Peace
karl
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brutusofwyde
Dec 6, 2004, 9:01 PM
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Big Bros and large cams each have their place.
The cams (valley giants) shown in the above photo outweigh Big Bros by a significant amount.
That said, there are routes where I wouldn't leave the ground without a couple of each.
But we're not talking 5.6 and 5.7 cracks here, ladies and gentlemen.
Brutus
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sspssp
Dec 6, 2004, 11:37 PM
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In reply to: Don't stand on em.
The first time I saw a Big Bro placed, my parnter stood on it. You just got to be careful to keep you foot on the correct side.
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david.yount
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Jan 6, 2005, 12:55 PM
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Uh, thought I should make my curtain call. Thanks, Kate.
BB #2 protects much bigger than C4 #5. That is, if you usually place your cams within the 60% range of their published working range.
I know I don't care much for cams I place that are in the largest 30% of their published max range.
204 grams BB #2 max size 145mm
387 grams C4 #5 max size 123mm (148mm published max)
6.5 ounces lighter! an inch greater size
264 grams BB #3 max size 203mm
557 grams C4 #6 max size 163mm (195mm published max)
10.5 ounces lighter! 1.5 inch greater size
114mm-195mm published range of C4 #6, so the middle of that range would be 154mm.
The BB #2 101mm-145mm so the BB #2 protects from about 10mm smaller than the min size of C4 #6 up to about 10mm smaller than the midrange of the #6. So if you usually use the C4 #6 within it's lower half range then the BB #2 covers almost the exact same range.... but the BB #2 is 12.5 ounces lighter than the C4 #6
The BB #3 goes larger than either BD C4 #6 or WC #6, while saving over 1/2 pound.
The BB #4 begins larger than either cam and just gets bigger.
The BB #5 is a bit of a freak.
I use the BB #2 often, it protects similar to an old BD #5. I use the BB #3 from time to time, it protects a bit larger than WC #6. I use the BB #4 on specific routes. I have no experience with the BB #1 nor the BB #0.5
Big Bros are not magnitudes harder to learn how to place well versus other pro. I just can't let that myth go unchallenged. All pro has unique concerns. I would say that cams are clearly harder to place well than stoppers. Even yet, ideal placements for cams and stoppers have much in common; they are more similar than they are different, certainly.
I feel that a 3-hour class placing Big Bros would yield better placements than a 3-hour class on placing cams.
David Yount.
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dirtineye
Jan 6, 2005, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Don't stand on em. The first time I saw a Big Bro placed, my parnter stood on it. You just got to be careful to keep you foot on the correct side.
You're just asking for trouble there.
Besides, that's aid climbing, or cheating haha.
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dingus
Jan 6, 2005, 4:40 PM
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In reply to: Big Bros and large cams each have their place. The cams (valley giants) shown in the above photo outweigh Big Bros by a significant amount. That said, there are routes where I wouldn't leave the ground without a couple of each. But we're not talking 5.6 and 5.7 cracks here, ladies and gentlemen. Brutus
Yes, big bros have their place!
http://img49.exs.cx/...utusofwyde062103.jpg
First ascent of Wagon Train, Sonora Pass, California, Brutus of WYDE. There are numerous examples.
DMT
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