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smearhound


Dec 16, 2004, 5:53 PM
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best racking biners?
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And the best racking biners are? Why?

Iíll be racking nuts, small-med cams (blue-red Aliens, green-blue Camalots), and small tricams (pink-brown) plus the usual extras. Iíd like to try and keep it light while still maintaining a keynose or some other design that will minimize gear-loop snag. After perusing gear reviews and soliciting some opinions, biners that Iím looking into are:

BD Positron (flat gate)
BD Dynotrons (flat gate)
BD Oval Wiregate
DMM Prowire
DMM Wirelock
Kong Helieum
Omega D-oval
Petzl spirit (flat gate)
WC Helium
WC Oxygen

Love or hate any of these or can suggest some others?

I could just go nuts and try 'em all -- I have to rely on mail order, unfortunately -- but I am loathe to spend that much money on such an experiment. (One might argue that trusting a bunch of generally anonymous internet posts may not be the wisest investment strategy either, but. . . .)


sarcat


Dec 16, 2004, 6:02 PM
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When I got my first set of nuts a while ago (DMM walnut/peanuts) I wanted color coded biners to rack them with. The DMM Prowire seem great because they have the right colors to split the nuts up in to groups of 3 or 4 for easy color identification and they were light. Very light.

http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/...products/prowire.jpg

They are not as good as I'd hoped. Seem every time I take my gear sling out of the pack one or two of the stopper wires have "twisted" around the gate and the weight of the nut it just snaps out of the biner. I haven't lost a nut yet but I'm sure I will soon.

Just something to look for. Not sure if this happens to other biners. ALL of my others are BD Quicksilver straight/bent gates. Maybe I'll try racking them on those to see if the problem persists.


alpnclmbr1


Dec 16, 2004, 6:04 PM
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I rack everything on neutrinos.

Snagging the gate hasn't been a problem. Dropping wires because of the wire gate was a problem for the first couple of months. Now it is about as rare a problem as it was pre-wiregates.

Of the biners that you list, the one I am buying is the wc helium.
The wirelock clips poorly, the rest are too heavy.

The one that is missing is the superfly, a light less expensive alternative to the above. Haven't used any.


pk


Dec 16, 2004, 6:11 PM
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I rack all my nuts tricams and hexes on Petzl Owalls, I haven't found a better oval biney with a keylock gate. The oval also alows a few more racking options for a few more wires on each biner ( I have 4 sets of nuts two bd two dmm's, don't always bring use em all )

http://www.petzl.com/...roduit_Image_477.jpg

P.K.


wiscoclimbiner


Dec 16, 2004, 6:32 PM
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i just use the OP ovals, have not had aproblem with them... yet

Ben


Partner climboard


Dec 16, 2004, 6:34 PM
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I use Ovalwires for my nuts and Neutrinos for everything else.

I am pretty happy with the setup. The Neutrinos are light and I like their smaller size as it makes my rack more compact.

I hear a lot of people talk about getting keylock biners to avoid gate snag but it's just never been a problem for me.


cyanamid


Dec 16, 2004, 6:38 PM
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I've got a bunch of the BD Ovalwires, they work fine. If I had to replace 'em I'd probably get OP D-Ovals for cams and keep the BD (a bit bigger) for anything wired.


jaybird2


Dec 16, 2004, 6:41 PM
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Smear,

Maybe a little more information about your grouping technique.
Nuts - How many biners to you want per set?
Tricams/Cams - How many cams/biner? If 1, then will you be fixing them to draws/slings straightup, or do you need/want to keep those separate still?
Having different biners for different groups works pretty good for function and for knowing what is what from the racking biner.


geezergecko


Dec 16, 2004, 6:48 PM
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In reply to:
I rack all my nuts tricams and hexes on Petzl Owalls...
Ditto and Petzl Spirits for cams. I understand that Kong makes a nice keylock oval but I haven't been able to buy them around here. BD Positrons also are nice for cams. WC Heliums (ones made after the recall) look like the ultimate racking biner.


healyje


Dec 16, 2004, 6:49 PM
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Petzl Spirits hands down...

I use both bent and straight gates (straights on the pro side and bent on the rope side of trad draws; straights on all cams; bent on multiply-racked nuts)

The nose on these gates don't snag anything - ever. In fact, when cleaning draws that have a loop dropped it is very easy to reclip the dropped loop cleanly with no hassle.

Weight advantages aside, I don't care much for wires for trad due to two things: first, just the texture of the gates [two wires per gate] in a rack makes for more confusion to the touch when trying to segregate out a piece and second, while the body of the wires are strong with the gate open or closed, I still have some concerns around the strength of the wire itself if torqued sideways when open.


pk


Dec 16, 2004, 6:50 PM
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In reply to:
Smear,

Maybe a little more information about your grouping technique.
Nuts - How many biners to you want per set?
Tricams/Cams - How many cams/biner? If 1, then will you be fixing them to draws/slings straightup, or do you need/want to keep those separate still?
Having different biners for different groups works pretty good for function and for knowing what is what from the racking biner.

As far as grouping nuts on biners, it all depends on your own personal systems needs. There's no one way to correctly rack em, it's all preference.

I'll put the three smaller tri cams on one owall and group smaller hexs two or three on one owall as well. I usually carry between 6 and 8 neutrino's for these placements as well as slinging pieces.

In the smaller nut range ( with carrying 3 sets ) I will usually put up to 8 small nuts on a single owall but I'll usually only carry 4 or the largest size nuts on one.

P.K.


eric


Dec 16, 2004, 6:58 PM
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The WC Heliums are wicked light (33g) but they're expensive and I don't much like the way they feel except as draws. Or rather, as Dan's draws :)
The Trango Superfly is even lighter (30g), and cheap -- around $7.50, but there was a reason I passed on them recently.... I can't remember. Didn't feel right or something.

I've become a big fan of the DMM Prowires, although the purdy colors don't do much for me. They're only 36g and less than $9 -- I think for the weight and quality, the best value around. Mainly I use these for draws and just use my older Hotwires and Neutrinos for racking cams and stoppers. Neutrinos are a pretty good choice for racking cams. Also 36g and about a buck cheaper than the Prowires. But they suck for draws since they're so small.

Another thing to consider is the design of the DMM Prowire. It seems to be intended for smaller diameter slings and ropes. An 8mm dyneema (trick clipped) sits really well in the end compared to, say, a Hotwire, and the notch thingy on the rope side is smaller. This was pointed out to me by Ami at Nomad.

I don't have a problem with stoppers generally, although I've experienced that (with the Hotwire, not the Prowire) -- where one gets stuck between the gate and nose. The Prowire has less of a gap between the gate and the nose than the Hotwire. Anyway, I intend to pick up a couple of keylocks specifically for racking stoppers... someday.

I guess this means I'm particular about different biners for racking vs. draws, although if I didn't think the Prowires were too nice looking for racking cams, and I didn't already have enough Hotwires and Neutrinos for that, I'd use them for racking too. :)


cgailey


Dec 16, 2004, 7:32 PM
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Ovals or oval wires for any wired pro. Neutrino or doval for cams.


Partner taino


Dec 16, 2004, 7:59 PM
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I rack exclusively with BD Positrons (flat gate). They fit my hand better than the Spirits, and I really like the fact that the gate is flat the entire length. It feels better, IMHO.

Yes, I could cut a few grams if I switched to wiregate; I'd rather not.

T


jaybird2


Dec 16, 2004, 8:21 PM
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In reply to:
As far as grouping nuts on biners, it all depends on your own personal systems needs. There's no one way to correctly rack em, it's all preference.

Hence my asking smear what his/her preference was. Does it seem like people are just trying their hardest to let people know how they think things should be done on this site instead really listening and only saying what needs to be said/recommended/suggested?


smearhound


Dec 16, 2004, 8:33 PM
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Jaybird2:

In reply to:
Maybe a little more information about your grouping technique.
Nuts - How many biners to you want per set?

2-3 per set of BD Stoppers

In reply to:
Cams - How many cams/biner? If 1, then will you be fixing them to draws/slings straightup, or do you need/want to keep those separate still?

Almost always one cam per biner.

In reply to:
Tricams

I only carry small tricams, and usually carry no more than 2 of the same-size pink and red tricams. When I do so, I double up and carry each pair on one biner.

In reply to:
Having different biners for different groups works pretty good for function and for knowing what is what from the racking biner.

Appreciated.

Thanks also to rest of you for the responses. I look forward to more thoughtful posts.


petsfed


Dec 16, 2004, 8:40 PM
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While I use almost exclusively wire gates on slings, I have a preference for solid gates when racking. I don't know why, maybe its easier to grab, it just feels right. Anyway, I use the old straight gate positrons with the funny railed gate for all of my cams, and a couple ovals for wires. Don't carry hexes much, those that I do are on Light-Ds.

Some caveats: I hate ovals almost as much as I hate light-D's. I got them on advice from here, when I was young and stupid. When I have the funds, the cams will go on bent gate Petzl Spirits (makes it easier in the Creek), the nuts and hexes will go onto straight gate BD Positrons or Dynotrons (haven't decided which). If I go with Dynotrons, I'll use the old posi's for building the BEST QUICKDRAW EVER (tm): positron and livewire, connected by a fat nylon sling.


mistertyler


Dec 16, 2004, 11:12 PM
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I bought a bunch (~20) of the orange anodized Petzl Spirits to be used exclusively as racking biners (easy to distinguish b/c of their color) and am very happy with them.


powderhound


Dec 16, 2004, 11:21 PM
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Personally I use the really crappy ones that you find on keychains, I bought 20 or so at the dollar stoare, and I just use them to attach my cams and nuts to my rack, but I never clip into them, and they are lighter then any other biner out there.


caughtinside


Dec 16, 2004, 11:24 PM
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Hmm, petsfed's comments on ovals were interesting.

I rack my wires on some omega ovals. I don't love them or hate them, but the oval shape makes the wires slide around easy, to isolate the one I want.

Mine are omegas, with notches. Hasn't been a problem.

I tried racking my wires on the positrons, but I didn't like it because the pear shape of the biner made it harder to isolate the one I wanted. Although, I probably could have gotten used to this. I was lazy and put them back on the oval instead.

My cams are on three kinds of biners. Some neutrinos, some JCs and some DMM bentgates. They all work fine, no real preference between those three.

Oh yeah, light Ds are a PAIN to clip the rope into. Not a very big gate opening at all.


tarzan420


Dec 16, 2004, 11:58 PM
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I use the kong keylock ovals for my nuts. probably similar to the petzl owalls.

Don't know how much the owalls weigh, but the kong keylock ovals seem a little heavy, all things considered. by they work nicely.


eric


Dec 17, 2004, 12:29 AM
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In reply to:
Personally I use the really crappy ones that you find on keychains, I bought 20 or so at the dollar stoare, and I just use them to attach my cams and nuts to my rack, but I never clip into them, and they are lighter then any other biner out there.

Crap, I think you're serious.


petsfed


Dec 17, 2004, 12:39 AM
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I hate ovals almost as much as I hate light-D's. I got them on advice from here, when I was young and stupid.

To qualify that: I like multiple uses to some extent with all of my gear. Ovals are neither strong, nor light (if you consider the ones I have). And they have that damned hook in the nose. Light-D's are worse because they are heavy, symmetric, and feel the same on either end. I can't find, by feel, the nose of the biner. That's a problem for me.

Don't like the dovals either, its like all of the weaknesses of a light D, with a lot of extra metal. They could easily make a doval lighter by abandoning the ovalized exterior and just make the crab a symmetric D. The interior wouldn't even change. But that's just my feeling on it. If I'm gonna get an ultralight utility biner, I'll go with the Trango Classic Wiregate. Light, straight spine, pretty much immune to gate lash. Everything I want in a utility carabiner.


Partner climbinginchico


Dec 17, 2004, 1:43 AM
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The BD ovalwire is nice... light and strong. Good shape for racking the nuts, I prefer to rack my cams with light wiregates tho.


vegastradguy


Dec 17, 2004, 1:57 AM
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i stopped racking my stoppers on my BD ovalwires after i lost two or three.

ovals of course have the best shape and ability to rack stoppers because they can simply hold more. the problem is that they are heavy and tend to not be notchless (Owall is an exception, but its even heavier than the BD oval!)

I currently rack my stoppers on WC Oxygens (which has the same footprint as the Helium, just not a wiregate) which are notchless and fairly light. My cams go on the Heliums or Positrons (last years model), soon to be all Heliums.

It's really all preference, but if you plan on racking stoppers on an asym-D biner, plan on using three for a set of stoppers. You can get away with two, but the biner tends to get crowded a bit.

cams, of course...doesnt matter if you're racking one cam per biner.

finally, a notchless biner, although not a necessity, is nice, especially as you climb harder routes. you wont notice this at first so much, but as you progress, the notchless becomes fairly nice.

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