When did I say anything about a rope behind someone leg?

If you see the point, then let me know?

If the climber fell upside down, chances are pretty good that the rope got caught behind his leg. There are many ways to skin a cat, but this was likely the cause.

FIrst, you and Dan seem to think that only the uninitiated get the rope behind theri leg. That's not true. For one thing, I've seen some pretty experienced climbers do it.

For another thing, if you lead enough roof routes, you'll see that sometimes you have a lot of trouble avoiding rope behind leg, even when you are aware of it and want to avoid it.

Ever fall across the rope bacause your belayer was too far back from the wall?

Lastly, if your harness is too low on your waist...

The only other major rock fall death at a cragging area that I can recall hearing about was a guy knocking a plate down on his girlfriend and taking her arm off.)

Yeah, but how often have you seen an experienced climber fall with the rope behind his leg?

Just because it's hard to avoid doesn't mean you can't avoid it. You just have to think a move ahead.

But can the leader escape responsibility for this belayer error?

And that is obviously the leader's error.

We learned not to fall out of dangerous body positions...

...not wear our harness down over our hips like some kind of gansta' wannabe

FIrst, you and Dan seem to think that only the uninitiated get the rope behind theri leg.

one of the two was by an outstanding climber (on a 5.9 sport route) who has done 5.12 trad. Anyone can make a mistake.

Not if the belayer decides to back away from the wall and the leader doesn't even know it til after he is falling over the rope.

The only truly unsafe falling position I know of is having the rope behind your leg

What, you don't keep an eye on your belayer? My leaders routinely glance over their shoulders and snap if need be. I do likewise.

The only truly unsafe falling position I know of is having the rope behind your leg

So if you guys are so good that you can hang on to broken holds and casually toss them aside, I assume you don't ever fall either? So in addition to leaving the helmet at home, you might as well leave the rope, right?

Most mountaineers wear helmets actually.

How do you avoid climbing other parties on routes like “the Nose, Arches, and serenity” or other long all day multipitch routes?

Falling is a part of climbing. If you think climbing is unsafe, then why do you even use a rope, gear, and harness?

1. My biggest problem with the modern helmet crowd is that in practice, and among other things, it has replaced the DO NOT CLIMB UNDERNEATH OTHER PEOPLE rule. Lets see, which makes more sense? Wear a helmet in an effort to protect yourself from people dropping things on you or don't climb underneath the people in the first place?

So the newbie crowd has discarded the idea of not falling on easy routes. Discarded the rule of not climbing under other people. Discarded the idea of learning how to follow before they start leading. Decided that dropping a rock on their partner, it isn't their fault. After all of that, they go out and buy a helmet and talk about how much safer they are because of it, and how anybody who doesn't wear a helmet must be stupid.

2. As far as falling and hitting your head on a rock? I have taken, belayed, or witnessed something on the order of 10,000 to 20,000 falls. Couple broken ankles and a bunch of dropped climbers sums up the injury tally. No concussions, no scalp injuries, maybe someone chipped a tooth. Never any helmets. The key was not falling in such a way as to hit your head. People seem to think that isn't possible. Practice shows that it is.

3. I know a number of thirty year climbers that are so bold and seemingly reckless (one biner belays, running out pitches, not placing gear for the second.) that I tend not to climb with them. Unless, I am feeling particularly adventurous... Anyway, these guys will pretty much NEVER climb underneath another party. Sorry, but even with all their crazy antics, these guys are still probably safer than most of the conservative newbies.

4. If you're wearing a helmet, and you get hit in the head by a rock. Seems like most people on this site would say "good thing I bought a helmet." If someone was really interested in staying alive, their response would be more on the lines of "O>K> dumbass, what did I do wrong that led to my getting hit on the head with a rock?"

5. I will also say this. Just because someone plays at being a safety nazi doesn't guarantee that they are safe climbers.

6. None of this should be taken as encouraging anyone not to wear a helmet.

Please explain why these events are not the fault of the climber.

1) Rockfall caused by hikers at top of cliff
2) Foothold broke and fell on belayer
3) Climber simply came off and pendulumed. Sure he was at fault for falling but if falling isn't allowed then no rope is needed.

1) Rockfall caused by hikers at top of cliff
2) Foothold broke and fell on belayer
3) Climber simply came off and pendulumed. Sure he was at fault for falling but if falling isn't allowed then no rope is needed.

On number 3, the climber shouldn't have fallen in that situation. If you're not at risk of pendulumming or slamming your head into something, fall until you're happy. Your argument is similar to the climber who falls doing proless psuedo solo. It's the climber's fault that he fell. He shouldn't have been there to begin with. See? There is no shame in backing off. There is considerable shame in getting yourself injured or worse in a place you should have the good sense not to be in.

No amount of equipment will make you completely safe, but improper usage of your most useful tool, your brain, is guaranteed to get you killed.

When you're run out above bad pro: you shouldn't fall.
When you're risking a bad pendulum: you shouldn't fall.
When you're simul climbing: you shouldn't fall.

See how this goes?

As far as the foothold falling on the belayer, well, had he been paying attention, he might've dodged it. As it stands, it was mighty handy to have a helmet on, but if the foothold was big enough to really injure him, the climber should've better tested it and (noting it was no good) not stood on it!

Thanks, but you only explained what happened in those situations, not why the climber was not at fault. In each case, it is clearly the climber (or belayer) who shares fault. As for #3, falling is allowed... but falling is not allowed when a pendulum is likely.

That is the point of the original post. A lot of climbers these days write off events such as those listed above as typical crag occurences which are outside of their realm of control. They think that by wearing a helmet, they can climb safely where rockfall is common, stand directly under a climber, pull/step on loose holds, or get careless when falling is not allowed.

Yes, by all means, wear your helmet, but judgement and common sense are what provide the most safety.

This notion that the climber can be all knowing, all seeing, anticipating every mishap and preventing it is just ludicrous.

First, it is common to see belayers standing well back from the wall at sport crags.

Thanks, but you only explained what happened in those situations, not why the climber was not at fault. In each case, it is clearly the climber (or belayer) who shares fault. ...

Yes, by all means, wear your helmet, but judgement and common sense are what provide the most safety.

While it is not possible to be "all-knowing" it certainly is possible to avoid the situations and circumstances that Dan mentioned in his original post. (i.e avoiding bad rock, not climbing below other people, not pulling your rap rope while standing directly below, etc., etc.) And if you do these things, you will most assuredly be much safer than by merely strapping on a helmet. I don't even see how this is debatable.

Curt