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oldguy
Jan 25, 2005, 6:24 PM
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I recently watch one of "Masters" videos. A couple of times in it, a nut was placed and a biner was used to connect directly between the wire and the rope. I was under the impression that something soft (a sling) was always needed between the pro and the rope to prevent the rope action from dislodging the pro. However, I can see that if the nut is jammed in tight it shouldn't be much of a concern.
So what's the deal. Is this a good placement or not?
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tradklime
Jan 25, 2005, 6:33 PM
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Of course the answer is "it depends". I'd always just put a quick draw on there just to feel better about it, even if just a shorty. I can't imagine 6 inches would make that much of a difference, other than for the better.
I suppose it could be less of an issue with pre-placed gear, or fixed nuts that are "welded" into place.
This could also fall into the "if you have to ask, don't do it" catagory.
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dirtineye
Jan 25, 2005, 7:17 PM
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Instead of asking for the answer, try this experiment:
place a nut. clip a biner directly to it and clip the rope. Now shake the rope around and see what happens. Try pulling outward on the rope. See what happens.
Try again with a sling between the pro and the rope.
Note your results.
Repeat many times with different placements and different sling lengths.
Report back with your results.
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vegastradguy
Jan 26, 2005, 3:59 AM
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considering it was on a video...it was 1) staged and 2) probably in the 5.12-5.13 range, meaning steep, perfectly straight, and 3) gear was probably set up such that clipping it directly to the rope was the only option for the climber to not fall
however, for mere mortals, wires should always have some sort of a draw on them. cams should to, unless you're climbing a perfectly straight pitch.
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ryan112ryan
Jan 26, 2005, 5:09 AM
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In reply to: however, for mere mortals, wires should always have some sort of a draw on them. cams should to, unless you're climbing a perfectly straight pitch.
could you elaborate on what you mean by straight up pitch?
second, i have always wondered about what size slings to choose for leading. from what i gathered you use a sling, when you have to place a peice off to the side of your intended line up the face (route). you choose a sling that is long enough to bring the rope back in line with your route. this allows for reduced rope drag, and allows less direct movement and force on the peice. is this correct????
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petsfed
Jan 26, 2005, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: however, for mere mortals, wires should always have some sort of a draw on them. cams should to, unless you're climbing a perfectly straight pitch. could you elaborate on what you mean by straight up pitch? second, i have always wondered about what size slings to choose for leading. from what i gathered you use a sling, when you have to place a peice off to the side of your intended line up the face (route). you choose a sling that is long enough to bring the rope back in line with your route. this allows for reduced rope drag, and allows less direct movement and force on the peice. is this correct????
The idea is that the path of the rope is as straight as possible. Less rope drag means two things: less rope drag so you don't have to fight as much friction going up, less rope movement which may cause seemingly good placements to walk into less good placements. Obviously this isn't always possible given certain situations (eg traversing above a ledge, etc) so you use what works best given the situation which may include clipping the piece directly. Better to be flexible to the situation than to blindly follow dogma, but take that with a grain of salt eh?
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dirtineye
Jan 26, 2005, 5:25 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: however, for mere mortals, wires should always have some sort of a draw on them. cams should to, unless you're climbing a perfectly straight pitch. could you elaborate on what you mean by straight up pitch? second, i have always wondered about what size slings to choose for leading. from what i gathered you use a sling, when you have to place a peice off to the side of your intended line up the face (route). you choose a sling that is long enough to bring the rope back in line with your route. this allows for reduced rope drag, and allows less direct movement and force on the peice. is this correct????
Yes it is.
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ryan112ryan
Jan 26, 2005, 5:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: however, for mere mortals, wires should always have some sort of a draw on them. cams should to, unless you're climbing a perfectly straight pitch. could you elaborate on what you mean by straight up pitch? second, i have always wondered about what size slings to choose for leading. from what i gathered you use a sling, when you have to place a peice off to the side of your intended line up the face (route). you choose a sling that is long enough to bring the rope back in line with your route. this allows for reduced rope drag, and allows less direct movement and force on the peice. is this correct???? Yes it is.
any further considerations? do most people use lockers from the nut wire, to the sling, then the sling to the rope. what tension should these slings be?
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dirtineye
Jan 26, 2005, 5:40 AM
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Ideally, the only pieces that should take any force at all are the top piece and the bottom anti zippering piece.
Almost nobody follows this excellent advice.
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maculated
Jan 26, 2005, 6:24 AM
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In reply to: any further considerations? do most people use lockers from the nut wire, to the sling, then the sling to the rope. what tension should these slings be?
Lockers rarely find themselves on protection placements (rarely because sometimes they just happen to be on my sling of choice at the time). Most people, and by this I mean all people, use a sling with two normal biners (although one could certainly be bent gate for the rope end if you're worried about it).
The tension question throws me. No entiendo.
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ryan112ryan
Jan 26, 2005, 5:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: what tension should these slings be? Tension indicates that there is friction on the biner dragging it away from the pro, so you ideally want minimal tension on the slings. That's the whole purpose of extending the placement.
wouldn't you want a sling that is just long enough to bring the rope back into the line of your route? if its longer, the runner will be loose, but if you were to fall you would fall furthur than with a shorter runner?.
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 26, 2005, 5:58 PM
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In reply to: Ideally, the only pieces that should take any force at all are the top piece and the bottom anti zippering piece. Almost nobody follows this excellent advice.
No, ideally you want all placed pieces to share the load. The top and bottom will obviously take a majority of it, but ideally you would like all of your pieces to go taut in the event of a fall, increasing the friction and decreasing the amount of force that the top one has to take.
Josh
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caughtinside
Jan 26, 2005, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Ideally, the only pieces that should take any force at all are the top piece and the bottom anti zippering piece. Almost nobody follows this excellent advice. No, ideally you want all placed pieces to share the load. The top and bottom will obviously take a majority of it, but ideally you would like all of your pieces to go taut in the event of a fall, increasing the friction and decreasing the amount of force that the top one has to take. Josh
Where did you get that idea?
The middle pieces won't be taking any up and down force. They will only be pulled from side to side if they are out of line with the rope. This may compromise those placements.
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dirtineye
Jan 26, 2005, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Ideally, the only pieces that should take any force at all are the top piece and the bottom anti zippering piece. Almost nobody follows this excellent advice. No, ideally you want all placed pieces to share the load. The top and bottom will obviously take a majority of it, but ideally you would like all of your pieces to go taut in the event of a fall, increasing the friction and decreasing the amount of force that the top one has to take. Josh Where did you get that idea? The middle pieces won't be taking any up and down force. They will only be pulled from side to side if they are out of line with the rope. This may compromise those placements.
Thanks caughtinside.
Josh, you don't understand. Your 'method' is downright dangerous. It is also just plain wrong. People hit the ground because they did what you suggest.
Have you ever heard of or seen the zippering effect? How do you think this happens? What do you think lifts nuts out, or walks cams into fixed gear or failure?
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 26, 2005, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Ideally, the only pieces that should take any force at all are the top piece and the bottom anti zippering piece. Almost nobody follows this excellent advice. No, ideally you want all placed pieces to share the load. The top and bottom will obviously take a majority of it, but ideally you would like all of your pieces to go taut in the event of a fall, increasing the friction and decreasing the amount of force that the top one has to take. Josh Where did you get that idea? The middle pieces won't be taking any up and down force. They will only be pulled from side to side if they are out of line with the rope. This may compromise those placements.
That's not what I said. I said they will take some of the load. When you place a piece, you place to accept, at the least, a downward and OUTWARD pull. In a fall, the rope goes taut pulling the pieces outward. A lot of these pieces accept friction and some of the energy. These pieces are not the critical ones of the first and last, but no one rests there life on one piece, but the system as a whole. That is what I meant. I am not sure how i am wrong, but please explain it to me.
Josh
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dirtineye
Jan 26, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Holy Mother of Pearl, is this bizzaro world climbing?
Since you, blue eyed climber, did not bother to read or thinbk about the other questions I gave you, I doubt this one wil ldo much good either, but, suppose for a minute that your way is OK.
You fall, and all your pieces shift. Then the top piece blows.
Now what do you think will happen? Do you really want the pieces below the top one to have shifted and then take the fall force after the original top piece blows?
Second scenario:
Geared as you stated, you fall, and the pieces under the top piece pop out because of the outward pull. Are you a happy climber now?
I'm starting to wonder if you have ever seen a cam walk or a nut lift.
Maybe someone else can explain it to you better, I give up.
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caughtinside
Jan 26, 2005, 8:57 PM
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How is the piece second from the top going to take outward pull? The rope is running from there to the top, not out.
If the pieces in the middle are taut on the rope, most likely the rope is pulling out on them. Sometimes, this can be unavoidable. Sometimes, this won't affect the placement.
But it is absorbing a negligible amount of the force of the fall, especially in comparison to the risk it poses in having those pieces shift/walk into bad spots. Either getting fixed, or getting loose/falling out.
Plus, what dirtineye said.
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 26, 2005, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: How is the piece second from the top going to take outward pull? The rope is running from there to the top, not out. If the pieces in the middle are taut on the rope, most likely the rope is pulling out on them. Sometimes, this can be unavoidable. Sometimes, this won't affect the placement. But it is absorbing a negligible amount of the force of the fall, especially in comparison to the risk it poses in having those pieces shift/walk into bad spots. Either getting fixed, or getting loose/falling out. Plus, what dirtineye said.
Yes, I understand this, but your pieces are set to take outward pull, I said nothing about upward pull. When you fall you fall, outward and downward. I think you misunderstood what I said. I place a piece to catch me if i fall (the top piece). As I climb, and put in more pieces set to anticipate the direction of pull. But when i fall, all those middle pieces Do play a role in the absortion of force. Maybe I overstated how much, but they do play a role. I never said that these pieces are catching my fall.
Usually pieces walk becasue of the UPWARD pull of the rope, not out ward, although this could happen as well.
Josh
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cracklover
Jan 26, 2005, 10:32 PM
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Sorry, Josh, much as I like you, I gotta call BS on this one.
1 - It's easy for a piece to get pulled *up*. Let's say piece # 1 is mostly to the right, piece # 2 is in the middle, and piece # 3 is up and slightly to the left. The draw on piece # 2 will be pulled up and to the right.
2 - Nylon and spectra runners absorb almost no force. On the contrary, the more the rope zigs and zags, the more force the top piece feels. This is because the friction of the rope going through each of those biners between the belay device and the top piece reduce the rope stretch, resulting in a practical case of higher fall factor. For more info, see the Petzl page that discusses their experiments on the topic.
In short, the closer you can get to a straight line with the biners on the rope, the better.
One exception: When I am at a crux where a fall might land me on a ledge or the ground, and the sling may make that difference, I sometimes will skip the sling, and just use a single locking biner. Or as Dizzy says: "A full length 'biner".
GO
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caughtinside
Jan 26, 2005, 10:38 PM
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In reply to: Usually pieces walk becasue of the UPWARD pull of the rope, not out ward, although this could happen as well.
Outward pull can rotate a cam easily. Then, it's not in position to catch a downward fall, or the rotation can walk it in deeper. Outward pull can shift your nuts, loosen them in place, or pull them out.
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 27, 2005, 12:17 AM
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I pretty much agree with all of you, but it is still not what i meant. I guess I will try one more, it's been fun.
I know I will get flamed for bringing a sport reference into the trad forum, but it may help my case.
In sport you don't really need to worry about the line of the rope because it's been done for you. With that said, when you fall, do all of the draws between the top and bottom get pulled by the rope or do they hang loose? THey get pulled out, Because the rope is in a straight line. Would the top draw have more force put on it if these "middle" draws are there or if they aren't. If there is only one draw to fall on, it will have more force put on it then if you are a dozen draws up.
That is all I was saying.
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caughtinside
Jan 27, 2005, 12:33 AM
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YOu can't compare bolts to gear. Otherwise, you wouldn't clip runners to gear. Bolts are multidirectional, gear isn't.
I see what you're saying. Yeah, if you fall, and the runner attached to your gear is pulled taut, the friction of that biner on the rope is going to absorb a small amount of energy. And it's also going to put force on your piece, perhaps moving or rotating it.
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 27, 2005, 12:44 AM
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In reply to: YOu can't compare bolts to gear. Otherwise, you wouldn't clip runners to gear. Bolts are multidirectional, gear isn't. I see what you're saying. Yeah, if you fall, and the runner attached to your gear is pulled taut, the friction of that biner on the rope is going to absorb a small amount of energy. And it's also going to put force on your piece, perhaps moving or rotating it.
Phew! Yes, I know you can't compare the two, but you see what I mean now, right? I brought up that reference so no one could talk about line of rope, because it isn't an issue in sport. Sorry about the confusion. I dont' know the numbers, but i am not sure the amount of energy absorbed is as small as you think. We need a physicist here.
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climbinginchico
Jan 27, 2005, 12:50 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: what tension should these slings be? Tension indicates that there is friction on the biner dragging it away from the pro, so you ideally want minimal tension on the slings. That's the whole purpose of extending the placement. wouldn't you want a sling that is just long enough to bring the rope back into the line of your route? if its longer, the runner will be loose, but if you were to fall you would fall furthur than with a shorter runner?.
In general, in trad climbing, this isn't that much of an issue unless there is a ledge or something. In which case, use a shorter one if you're gonna fall. There shouldn't be tension on the slings because it can cause the piece to walk, or shift, possibly reducing the effectiveness of the placement. The purpose of extending the placement is to keep it from walking.
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