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mdv638
Feb 9, 2005, 3:28 AM
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I climb with a silent partner. I read a post recently about how some solo climbers, who use a gri gri, attach their lead line to their haul bag when leading. The argument for this is so that their anchor would not “need” to be multi directional, and it would provide a dynamic belay. I personally would probably build a multi directional anchor anyway. However, I got to thinking what if you took a lead fall on a silent partner that was connected to an anchor, like a haul bag that would move a bit, and provide a dynamic belay in the event of a fall. My initial guess is that the clutch in the silent partner would not work as expected without a static belay. This is not founded on anything though. It is just a guess. Anybody have any experiences or thoughts on this matter?
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lambone
Feb 9, 2005, 4:23 AM
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test it out and let us know...
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moof
Feb 9, 2005, 6:22 AM
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SP is speed sensitive. Once locked up it takes little force to stay locked. Using the haul bag, or screamers, or whatever should have no effect on it actually catching, or the time it takes to catch. Get one, play with it, realize it's flaws, then sell it on ebay.
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epic_ed
Feb 9, 2005, 6:32 AM
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Really, Moof? Heck with the recent thread we had about the SP, most people emphasized the advantages of using it over the gri gri. So much so that I've been convinced to borrow one for some more experimentation. What haven't you like about it?
As to the posted question, I'l have to defer comment, but I've got a feeling there's only one way to find out.
Ed
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mikeehartley
Feb 9, 2005, 3:48 PM
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Assuming I understand your question...
While I've seen people solo with their belay device at the anchor but I've never quite understood this technique. What if you are 3/4 the way up the pitch and the thing (especially an SP) locks up? Sure seems like yer screwed! Putting a "screamer" on the belay anchor and having the belay device on your body makes much more sense to me.
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timmy_t
Feb 9, 2005, 4:13 PM
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I was thinking about this the other day and the theory I came up with is as follows. Build a multi-directional anchor and hang the pig off of it. Attach the end of the lead line to the anchor then clove hitch a locker onto the bag a few feet up the rope, then lead with the rope and device on you. I suggest the lead rope being on the anchor then to the bag then to you because it will give you more of a dynamic belay, and you AREN'T anchoring solely to the haulbag. I would also just keep the device on me, save what could be an epic from what mikeehartley stated above. Happy aiding!!
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moof
Feb 9, 2005, 4:47 PM
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My standard for a belay device (solo or regular) is pretty high since failure means someone dies or gets hurt.
I climbed with my silent partner for about 10 months on a road trip. I used it when partners weren't forthcoming, or when I wanted to practice aid climbing (I didn't even think of torturing a partner for that crap). It was not heavily used, probably around 20 pitches (though often used for following as well as leading).
The last time I used it was a little over a year ago on a cold day(~45 F) for some aid practice in Jtree. When I came down and put my gear away it failed the spin test. I put a chunk of rope into it so I could really yard on it. Still it did not lock up. After much musing and spinning it started to lock up. First occasionally at high speeds, eventually every time at reasonable speeds. I was rather freaked to think back during the day when if I had fallen I would have died or been badly hurt had the SP not locked or had been slow to lock up.
Further tinkering showed it never has a problem with the thumb spin or rope test at about 55F or above. Below about 20F I've never gotten it to lock up. Try sticking your's into the freezer for an hour and play with it as it warms up. Mine is probably the one bad apple.
YMMV, but the lack of inspectibility and a failure to function properly for me made me a strong critic of it. I still need to get around to sending it back to Wren for an explanation. My motivation is low since I doubt I would ever climb with it again, even with a good explanation.
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abalch
Feb 9, 2005, 5:06 PM
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Wren does say in their literature not to use the silent partner near, or below freezing, because of danger of the clutch freezing, and not working. But, by your description, you weren't that close to freezing, unless your impression of the temperature was off that day.
I had considered getting a silent partner in the past, but unfortunately most of the time that I am looking for a partner is in the wet, cold winter time in Oregon, and so I am wanting to climb in conditions that Wren warns could cause the silent partner to fail to work.
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greenmachineman7
Feb 9, 2005, 5:15 PM
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hey guys-
it's ultimately the BACKUP KNOT that saves yer ass when it fails anyways, so tie some in there, and go for it!
anyone who wants to sell me an SP gimme a PM...
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moof
Feb 10, 2005, 6:45 AM
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I had a thermometer handy at the time, so I am confident of the 45F. I'll have to reread my manual, but I thought the concern was ice on the rope, not the clutch not catching.
I was soloing a single pitch route (left ski track) where for the bottom section there are frequently cases when backup knots won't keep you from decking. I had knots every 50', meaning for the first 30-35' and around 50-60' if I pinged, the backup knot would do little or nothing.
Now I've gone back to using a solo-aid. No self feeding, but it's only 3 parts. I can easily see it's working.
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lambone
Feb 10, 2005, 9:35 AM
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In reply to: it's ultimately the BACKUP KNOT that saves yer ass when it fails anyways, so tie some in there, and go for it!
you wouldn't be able to use a backup knot if your Silent Partner was hooked up down at the belay like he is describing...would you?
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lambone
Feb 10, 2005, 9:38 AM
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In reply to: I was thinking about this the other day and the theory I came up with is as follows. Build a multi-directional anchor and hang the pig off of it. Attach the end of the lead line to the anchor then clove hitch a locker onto the bag a few feet up the rope, then lead with the rope and device on you. I suggest the lead rope being on the anchor then to the bag then to you because it will give you more of a dynamic belay, and you AREN'T anchoring solely to the haulbag. I would also just keep the device on me, save what could be an epic from what mikeehartley stated above. Happy aiding!!
yes this method is pretty standard, works great. Just make sure your haulbag is well secured.
To simplify it, you could just hang your haulbag off the anchor power point. Then you don't need a seperate hitch in the rope for it. As you go down your cordelette and powerpoint go up with the haulbag attached.
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coldclimb
Feb 10, 2005, 10:11 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: it's ultimately the BACKUP KNOT that saves yer ass when it fails anyways, so tie some in there, and go for it! you wouldn't be able to use a backup knot if your Silent Partner was hooked up down at the belay like he is describing...would you?
I think he actually means the device would be on him, but the other end of the rope would be on the haulbag. There's nobody out there using the Silent Partner who thinks that it would be ok to leave the device unattended at the anchor, is there? :shock:
And about the freezing, here's a clip directly from the manual:
In reply to: DO NOT USE THE SILENT PARTNER IN SUB-FREEZING CONDITIONS. Frozen water in the clutch could prevent the Silent Partner from locking during a fall. |
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mdv638
Feb 10, 2005, 5:41 PM
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Just to clarify
· The silent partner is connected to me
· The haul bag is connected to the power point of the anchor.
· The lead rope is also tied to the power point of the anchor
Sorry if there was any confusion in the original post.
I think I’m going to go out this weekend, set up a top rope(as a backup), and do some simulated lead fall testing to see what will happen.
Thank you for the helpful posts.
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lambone
Feb 10, 2005, 6:05 PM
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oh, oopps...my bad, I was confused by this part of your post:
In reply to: ... what if you took a lead fall on a silent partner that was connected to an anchor...
My friend uses the pig belay with his Silent Partner and I believe it works fine.
The poster named 'Blinny" on Supertopo.com actually designed the Silent Partner and did all the testing for it. if you are really curious I would go to them and ask...
This thread has some SP info mixed in, worth a read:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=56081#msg56094
In Fact, I'll just start a thread over there and see if they reply.
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lambone
Feb 15, 2005, 6:09 PM
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From the designer of the Silent partner, on Supertopo.com
In reply to: Blinny Trad climber From: Eureka, Montana Using the haul bag as a couterweight should not affect the working of the Silent Patner. In fact I recommend it to help reduce shock loads. Once the SP locks there is nothing dynamic about it. No more than a foot of rope should feed once the drum stops turning. Most of that is just the clove hitch cinching up and the rope streatching a bit. The Silent partner's clutch is sensitive to both speed and acceleration. The speed at which it locks should be be fairly slow. A free falling oblect will pick up enough speed to lock it in about 3 feet. If you take a lead fall, and travel a ways before the rope comes tight, it will lock pretty much instantly. No more than a foot of rope should feed. If you have a Silent Partner that you think is less sensitive than that, you should contact Wren Industries about sending it back to be re-calibrated. Also, when using the Silent Partner, give it a quick locking test EVERY TIME you put the rope on it. Just give it a quick tug to make sure it locks. This like saying "on belay??" to a human partner. Mark |
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flamer
Feb 16, 2005, 2:54 AM
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Just used my SP again today....worked well exept for a couple of minor tangle's....I do love that thing.
josh
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