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dmckj
Feb 8, 2005, 6:15 PM
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Dear No_One,
O.K., I was dead-on on point #3.
You entirely miss the point, clearly and thoughtfully presented earlier in this thread, and your question therefore doesn't merit an answer. Go back and read everything very carefully.
Despite that, I'll try to restate if for you as simply as possible:
1) No one, least of all me, claimed what you have been deluded (by your lovely friendship with Dangle) into believing was claimed. No one, ever. Not even Middendorff. That nullifies your whole thread of illogic right of the start.
2) (And this is getting tiring) Everything I did is documented in original topos, the dates and personnel correct. I had no control or say or input in what anyone wrote anywhere else (For that matter, John M. used topos of mine without checking with me for any permission). I have never claimed to have done anything other that what is on those topos (remember, I am writing this to you in clear English). The same cannot be said with respect to Dangle, most notably, for the history he fabricated, repeatedly and in publication, for Spaceshot (Do you GET this?).
3) But even this doesn't matter, although I do think history should 'get it right'. What does matter is Dangle's 15-20 years of opening his mouth and slandering me -- most notably in the start of this thread (I repeat...DO YOU GET IT?) -- for reasons I have also outlined earlier in this thread. I've finally run out of patience.
If you can't fathom here that Dangle has a history of 'problems' with partners then I can't help you.
Before weighing in on matters you have no knowledge of, I suggest you get your own understanding Zion history in line first, carefully analyze Dangle's history of actions and 'prevarications' second, and then think real hard about what it all means.
And remember, you're judged not only what you do but by the friends you keep.
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tenesmus
Feb 8, 2005, 7:44 PM
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In reply to: more real, true, honest, and, hopefully, fun..... ROUTE NAME STORIES FROM ZION as humbly presented to you by our sponsors.... Dancing With Zully (West Face of Mt. Spry: 5.10+, 5 pitches) After having put up 'Mouse Turds in The Oven', John Middendorff (my imaginary friend) and I were looking for some fresh meat. I told John about a 'great' line I had somewhere, we took a look at it, but he wasn't too keen (grody start with poison ivy). So.....I had this cool splitter picked out on the W. Face of Mt. Spry, about 100 yards to the S. of Sandblaster. We motored up to the base, and as luck would have it the cracks didn't reach the ground. Bummer. Further, this was my brilliant idea, so I was the sucker who had to figure out how to get to the crack. Luckily, the first pitch, mostly face with incipient cracks, turned out to be pretty brilliant, and a tad scary. I shed a sentimental tear when I used on of my old 'BANDITO' hangers, courtesy of 'little buddy' out of Flag. Anyway, once to the base of the splitter we were treated to 4 more pitches of sterling cracks. Great cracks. So sweet, in fact, it reminded me of a real cutey I had met at a strip joint in Mexico. Spent most of the night drinking and dancing with her and......(nah, you guys don't want to hear the rest of that story). Anyway, her stage name was 'Zully', and I couldn't think of anything much finer than 'Dancing With Zully'.
So... this sounds like a fun route. I haven't heard of it before. How runnout is it getting into the crack? What gear should I bring? (read: how wide is it?) This is just the kind of thing I love. Isn't Sandblaster near the tunnel?
By the way, something like 1/2 to 2/3rd's of Middledorff's route list on his site have FA's with Dave Jones in the party. Prolific.
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tenesmus
Feb 8, 2005, 7:48 PM
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Also, does anyone know the story/info about the Sunshine wall in Kolob?
I'm plain interested in moderate free routes down there - like .10 or .11
BSmoot - I've done a little slab climbing in the Wasatch, and it always amazes me how stout it is. Does this have something to do with just plain old school grades, or has the gradual deteriation of the granite over the years had as much of a contribution?
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brianinslc
Feb 8, 2005, 8:14 PM
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In reply to: Also, does anyone know the story/info about the Sunshine wall in Kolob?
Do you mean the Sunshine Buttress? I've done most of it. Let me know if you want a route topo, I'll bring one to the gym...(and I think there's a couple guys at the gym or across the street who've free climbed it).
As far as the story...there's at least two folks who post here that were on the FA of that route...and...its pretty well documented in the book, 50 favorites. Neat line. Gets a bit wide and sandy up top.
In reply to: BSmoot - I've done a little slab climbing in the Wasatch, and it always amazes me how stout it is. Does this have something to do with just plain old school grades, or has the gradual deteriation of the granite over the years had as much of a contribution?
More a gradual deteriation of the climbing populace...ha ha. To many gym climbers and well protected sports routes perhaps...and/or, folks not pushing their limits on slab, which is more of a head trip than say takin' multiple whippers or "takes" on "All Chalk..." for instance. Last season, watched Trashman hike All Chalk (had it wired) versus back down from Paranoia Streak. Pretty interesting. Different gigs, different type of climbing. All fun.
-Brian in SLC
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brianinslc
Feb 8, 2005, 8:15 PM
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sorry for the repeat..
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brianinslc
Feb 8, 2005, 8:16 PM
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Geez, a triple post...
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rockprodigy
Feb 8, 2005, 9:24 PM
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...Cabe calls out the trashman...nice. It's about time what goes around comes back around.
Seriously though, Brian hit the nail on the head with the slab ratings. I do think the LCC has the hardest slabs I've tried, but don't hang your hat on that.
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tenesmus
Feb 8, 2005, 11:20 PM
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In reply to: ...Cabe calls out the trashman...nice. It's about time what goes around comes back around. Seriously though, Brian hit the nail on the head with the slab ratings. I do think the LCC has the hardest slabs I've tried, but don't hang your hat on that.
What other slabs have you tried for comparison?
What is a good long face route in Zion? How long will it take people to make it twice as hard by the holds melting off?
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rockprodigy
Feb 9, 2005, 4:49 AM
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Huh. That "MikeA" guy sounds like a real wanker. From what I hear, the free version of the Lowe Route on Angels Landing will definitely get harder as holds get rounded down.
There are also pitches here and there, all over the park that will probably change, or already have since the FA: The first 5.9 pitch on Iron Messiah, the 11c pitch on Shune's, the Black Corner pitch and the final 5.11 slab pitch on Monkey Finger, the 11c slab pitch on Moonlight. Not to mention the fact that the cracks themselves change quite a bit with every aid ascent. I'm sure the crux pitch of moonlight was much harder in '89 when Johnny and Peter did it, than when I did it in '03, and I'm sure it's easier now than when I did it. Some day soon it'll be 12a.
Stuff changes, that's the natural condition of the medium. It's best to just accept it, and not try to hold onto any current state of existence.
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bsmoot
Feb 9, 2005, 5:39 AM
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What is a good, long face route?
Try Made to be broken 5.10+ It's a 5 pitch face route behind the lodge.
No_One/Dangle: That 70's - Jones history thing...GET OVER IT! Middendorf was simply generalizing history of the 70's & 80's
(This post was edited by bsmoot on May 2, 2009, 2:25 PM)
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funk29
Feb 10, 2005, 1:15 AM
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This is the best fourm i have read all year on this site. I want to hear more history and less trash talk. Maybe the two go hand in hand.
Old school hardmen.
Any good stories from the South Fork of Taylor Creek. Besides getting swept away by the sirens that live there.
"you were fix'n to fornicate too!" -O brother
I have done the first five pitches of Sunight Butress, not sure why it made 50 classics. Maybe I should climb it again.
m barley
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epic_ed
Feb 10, 2005, 2:34 AM
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Well, what the heck happened to Timbertop?!?!
C'mon!
Ed
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deuce4
Feb 10, 2005, 3:11 AM
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wow, this looks like a good fray. Can I join?
Hey Dave, what's your new email? I saw your posts about some of the old climbs. Can't remember any of them!
Just kidding. Those were good times. That Dancing with Zully was some fine freeclimbing, especially that first pitch. I remember leading some sweet Zion 5.10 pitch later as well. I recall wishing we had set the route up for rapping, instead of that painful descent from another route and a long hike back to the base in tight shoes. I think I would reclimb that route some day if some kind soul put some rap anchors in.
By the way, wasn't Zully more than just an aquaintance? oops.
Say, I remember asking you about publishing those topos that were in Rock and Ice and got your verbal go ahead. Anyway I did a lot of those routes myself, except for some on the East Temple. I think that was in the days that we were travelling 1000 feet underground for weeks at a time in Lechugilla. Maybe not.
Anyway, I remember it was a true dilemma to write the Zion article for Rock and Ice, but it seemed there was such huge demand for some--just some--info, about some routes in Zion, and people were starting to go up on established routes and adding bolts and stuff thinking they were doing FA's, and trashing the landscape with multiple approach trails, so I somehow justified giving some info. I still have a near complete manuscript of what could have been a guidebook to Zion up to 1995, but could never justify publishing and taking that much adventure out of such a magic place.
Anyway, here's to Zion! The new breed there, like Ammon and friends, really seems to be ripping up with some awesome routes.
Cheers
John Middendorf
(Indeed, a friend of Dave's)
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funk29
Feb 10, 2005, 3:38 AM
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John,
I think its your turn to tell us a story.
m
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bsmoot
Feb 10, 2005, 5:23 AM
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Deuce:
Welcome aboard! When you get time, it would be nice to hear about the climbing scene of the 90's and who were the players...the characters you climbed with...some of your adventures... like more snipits from the Radiator or Tao of the Light...descents, etc.
Holding off on your guidebook 10 years ago seemed to be the right call, but now in order to spread out the masses, it might be warrented. Chatting with the local boys recently, we all seemed to come up with the same thoughts...only 5 routes are crowded out of nearly 150 wall routes that have so far been done. Yes, free climbing standards are again on the rise and there is this one aid climber Klaus (Silent Montana) is inside of the bird beak and looking out! Amazing stuff has been happening.
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no_one
Feb 10, 2005, 5:27 AM
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This has been an awsome thread, honestly. I never thought I'd get my ass chewed out by Dave Jones for sticking up for Ron Olevsky and then have John Middendorf weigh in and make me feel like an even bigger ass. Thanks for all the stories Boys, I turn and walk away with my tail between my legs.
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rocknroll
Feb 10, 2005, 1:28 PM
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When we last left our Timbertop climbers they had hiked back into the Kolob after their day in court. Ron was ecstatic. He beat Jonsey over the $3.25 collect call. I was incredulous. How could a judge let that piddly amount tie up the courts. Mark explained, "They asked him if he owed the money, Jones said yes, case closed." And Jonesey owed the court costs and for the sheriff who served him. Ron was dancing around getting his stuff ready for tomorrow's ascent. Ron's victory in the courts was actually good news. We both felt that Ron's mood would be better on this climb, instead of his usual "little hitler" routine.
Anyone who has climbed with Ron has experienced it. Ron comes off as the know-it-all, which he is when it comes to Zion climbing. But he uses it to build himself up and have the upperhad in the decision making on the climb. He starts to use his 'superior' knowledge to belittle his partners and make them feel like idiots. He will criticize every minute detail. And if you actually make a mistake, god forbid, you won't hear the end of it. Constant yelling name calling and temper tantrums. And Ron has his own secret code, nicknames for everything you climb with. I think he does this to deliberately confuse you. I remember wandering around this ledge on the first ascent of the Equinox wondereing what he meant by "put the aseptics in the fass nord and haul them on the B rope." OK Ready, here it is. Aseptics are those small square juice containers that come with a little straw you use to poke a hole in them to drink. He called them Aseptic because it is basically a sterile package. The Fass Nord or North Face in German is ..guess...nope, not a North Face pack. It is an early Chouinard climbing pack that's model was called a Fass Nord . And the B rope. You would probably think the haul line, but actually it was a rope he had of lesser quality which we used as a lower out line. It wasn't like you might think, A rope = lead line. b rope= haul line -no just a lesser quality rope. And nobody would understand what he meant by it all. You would stare up at the cantakerous fool, dumbly, and get ready for his rage.
Well, we lucked out as we got on Timbertop. Ron seemed to have turned over a new leaf. Friendly attitude. Everyone is working well together. Then it is Rons turn to lead...
To be continued
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rockprodigy
Feb 10, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Boy...now things are getting interesting! If we could only get Jeff and Conrad involved....
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une
Feb 10, 2005, 4:42 PM
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Well, what can I say? This has been the only thread longer than five pages that I have actually read on this site. (aside from women of RC.com, but that was mostly just looking at pictures) These stories have been great.
I have to admit that when I first started to read this thread that I was behind dangle all the way. He made it sound so convincing in the beginning. Now, having read the completely read this thread, I feel that I must believe dmcjk is indeed weaving a more accurate version of history.
Again, thank you for the facinating stories and I look forward to future installments.
edit: After recieving a PM from Dangle (there were no threats) I am going to change my view to that of no view at all. He asked my to refrain from siding with one party or the other untill all the details are clear. That is precicly what I shall do.
Again thank you for the stories of Zion history and consider me a neutral observer from here on out.
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deuce4
Feb 10, 2005, 5:36 PM
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http://www.bigwalls.net/.../newphotos/derik.jpg
Above Photo: Derek Hersey climbing up to the Rock House Tree House.
How about the old tree house in Springdale at Brad Quinn and Darren Cope's old RockHouse? What an institution that was. Lots of stories there...
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rocknroll
Feb 10, 2005, 8:52 PM
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Before we continue with the rest of the Timbertop story, let me give you a little more background on the mountain and the climb. Timbertop Mesa is in the Kolob section of Zion N.P. at an elevation of 7,000 feet at its base. We are in the pines here. The summit is 2500 feet above, and the northface is proably about 2000 feet in length making it one of the largest rock walls in Zion (Anyone want to venture a guess on the largest wall in Zion N P, including steep white rock, but not past the rim?). It also is completely cut-off from access except via roped climbing. Scientist have studied its animal life because it is so incestuous. There are even deer up there.
I was a fledgeling film producer and wanted to make a film about the ascent. I had quit the UCLA graduate film program to do it. My father was pissed; he thought I was going to be the next Spielberg and UCLA is the door in to Hollywood. But the mountains beckoned. I wrote a proposal for the film and sent it to all the equipment companies. Chouinard gave me a bunch of reject hexes and 50 baby angles, our sandstone "bolts" at the time. Todd Bibler, of Bibler Tenmts, wrote back and said, "if you don't hurry up and climb it, I'll climb it first!". With a few oddly cast hexes and no funds to speak of, I scrapped the film project and went to climb it before Todd Bibler, or Dave Jones or Duecy did.
Let me stop our story for a minute or two. I just went into my files and found the proposal for the Timbertop film/climb written in 1983. Here it is:
The wind stabs hard against the red rock of Soutnern Utah. To the southeast, huge cumulus clouds grow mad and dark, threatening rain. Ron Olevesky emerges from his house; a brick windowless bunker standing solitary against the approaching storm. He removes the cycling cap from his balding head and wipes the sweat from his brow with the back of his hand. A hand holding a pistol. I turn towards him as he stares at the building rain. "Don't you ever get lonely out here, Ron?"
"Hell, no!" he snaps back, "Do you think I'd live here if I got lonesome?"
Ron Olevesky is a man who symbolizes the Old West. He lives by his own rules, savoring his freedom of the wide open spaces. He has no qualms about using a gun, or a stick of dynamite, if the situation warrants it. Yet he is a lover of the wilderness and the land around him. He considers himself a vigillant protector of the land. He cuts down billboards that obscure beautiful views, or erects signs to state his own views. On a recent visite to Zion NP by secratary of the interior James Watt, Olevesky erected a sign high on a sandstone wall. "This Park For Sale - Call James Watt".
Olevesky does not work, but earns his keep through careful investment of a large inheritance. He spends his time riding his mules, running rivers and his most passionate endevour - climbing the huge sandstone walls of Zion NP.
Olevesky first came out west as a teenager. He soon found within himself a great love of this jagged land and sought ways to emerse himself within it. He arrived in Yosemite Valley and had to caress its sheer granite walls. Here he learned the techniques of rock climbing and began the scaling the huge cliffs.
Olevesky climbed with the famous climbers of the time, erecting bold new lines on the largest face, El Capitan. He fell in love with this sport, especially aid climbing, savoring the sound of a well-driven piton in stone.
But rock climbing was under going a huge revolution. All the big faces had been climbed and the emphasis was shifting from not on how high you could climb, but how hard you could climb. The emphasis was on pitting your physical strength not the strength of a piece of protection. And pitons, a necessary component of aid climbing, were seen as environmentally damaging and wedges were now in vogue.
But Ron loved aid climbing. He loved it so much he wanted to prove to the Yosemite climbers of its validity by epoxing slings onto Columbia Boulder in camp 4. This did not sit well with the resident hardmen. Olevesky became the subject of countless discussions about ethics and responsibility. Leaving his trash glued to the rock! But Piton Ron refused to change and had to find a new place to climb.
Ron sought asylum in Zion Canyon. When he first entered it in the seventies, only a handful of routes had been climbed. There were horror stories about loose riock and wide unprotectable cracks in the soft rock. Olevesky found a place to hammer his pitons. In most places, the soft rock of Zion could only be climbed utilizing iron. Without anyone to climb with he worked alone, picking out small thin cracks with a pair of binoculars. Ron ascended Zion's most popular routes and he was in Heaven. He had to use pitons instead of conventional protection; he had to use aid for the rock was too steep or overhanging for free climbing and here he would become famous - for very few people had the guts to climb on the soft rock. Ron has over one hundred routes in Zion, most of these are multi-day affairs, put up by Olevesky alone. He hauls up huge sacks of food (usually half of which is beer), and sleeps on thin ledges watching the vast Utah sky fill with stars.
To be on a climb with Olevesky is an experience in itself. He demands discipline and militaristic precision, yet he'll come down from a multi-day wall not because he's run out of food, but because he's run out of beer.
After climbing with him once, some climbers have vowed never to climb with him again - he has earned the nickname Ron Offensesky and Little Hitler. Others won't climb with him for ethical reaseons, saying Olevesky has no respect for the rock and will hammer in needless pitons and bolts when a clean wedge would suffice. Olevesky disregards such comments, saying, "I'd rather be safe," when in reality, he'd rather not be scared.
Ron has also brought a great service to the land where he lives. He has created the rock climbing section of The Iron County Search and Rescue team. Using his big wall techniques, Ron has assisted in countless rescues of tourists and citizens alike. The people of southern Utah are indebted to Olevesky for his knowledge and assistance in making this land a safer place to tread.
The film I am proposing follows the antics of this desert rat/hermit/eco-raider/climber/survivalist/rescuer. For in June, Ron plans the largest ascent of his life. The North Face at Timbertop mesa. Here in the hidden canyons of the Kolob in Zion National Park is the biggest piece of vertical sandstone in the world <>. In May, Ron will begin transferring supplies to the base on the back of his mules. He hopes to have a partner or two; if he can find someone to put up with him. But, with such a tempting prize in mind, it should not be hard to find someone.
An ex-partner of his also has his eye on the big face. Dave Jones has seen the Walll, and may try to race Olevesky to it, making for an exciting confrontation this spring in Zion. Perhaps they will join forces ...
<>
So a lot was riding on this ascent. And when I got my lead it couldn't have been better. A thin crack opening to hands, step out of the aiders, and jam, jam, jam. "We're jamming" I sang at the top of my lungs in pure bliss only to be interuppted by "Hey F--K face, you left your aiders behind. What if you need them for more aid?" Ron was right, but I stammered my defense anyway.
"I can see that it is a perfect handcrack well into the next pitch." I yelled back.
"Oh, I see." countered Ron, "and you want me to clean up the mess you left behind. I suppose you want me to carry your used toilet paper as well!"
I could see Mark shaking his head and avoiding the squabble all together. I reached the end of the rope at a perfect alcove ledge and anchored, following Ron's methods to the tee, lest I become a victim for more verbal abuse.
to be continued ...
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brianinslc
Feb 10, 2005, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: Before we continue with the rest of the Timbertop story, let me give you a little more background on the mountain and the climb. Timbertop Mesa is in the Kolob section of Zion N.P. at an elevation of 7,000 feet at its base. We are in the pines here. The summit is 2500 feet above, and the northface is proably about 2000 feet in length making it one of the largest rock walls in Zion (Anyone want to venture a guess on the largest wall in Zion N P, including steep white rock, but not past the rim?).
South face of the East Temple?
-Brian in SLC
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rocknroll
Feb 11, 2005, 6:17 AM
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guess again.
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milktoast
Feb 11, 2005, 7:02 AM
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I milktoast feel like my name sounds, burnt toast dunked in warm milk, and getting soggy... But here is my story about how history gets obscured, especially in a place like Zion...
It is winter, in the 90's and my partner and I are tired of snowboarding, so tired, we decide to take some time off and go climb a wall, in zion. Being self proclaimed veterans of yosemite, we should have no trouble with one of the "little walls" of zion. So we pack up and head out,from beautiful breckenridge, CO. Our plan is to tackle, whatever no one else is on. Fortunatly, no one is climbing in the park at all, as far as we could tell. So we opt for the easiest wall we can find. We are less than 2 weeks from the shortest day of the year. After a couple hours of skimming through the guide book in the visitor center, we decide on going up touchstone, or cerebrus gendarme. We could do it in a day, if the days were longer, we reaffirm ourselves. So off we go leaving the ground at 14:00 in the afternoon. I got a little bit ahead of myself, our gear consisted of, portaledge, sleeping bags, small rack, two ropes, slim food for two days, an ounce of washington's finest indoor weed, a bottle of tequila, a bottle of single malt scotch, and a case of cheap beer in cans ( 24 beers, not 12 like some people call cases ) We planned on running up touchstone and being back on the ground by the night of the next day. Starting at 2:00 pm half drunk and fully stoned, we only made it a couple pitches up before darkness set in. "Wow it sure gets dark early" my partner exclaimed as we set up the ledge in the dark, at the top of pitch two. "No worries," I replied, " We will get an early start" gulp, gulp goes the booze, and inhale goes the pot. Well we didn't start early, and we didn't start right. After each pitch, the leader would get a shot of tequila. And before the start of the next, a couple tokes of weed, to clear the head. Now this part gets hazy (wonder why) but we did top out that night. And after a long drawn out safety break on top, we realized that niether of us "experienced wall climbers", bothered to look at how to get down. So we meandered around and found a notch, where it was either left or right. One gully/chimney system went towards the south side, where we had climbed up(the correct descent I later learned) and the other headed down a gully to the north, which after a lot of alcohol, seemed "right". Well it was the wrong way to descend. After a couple hours of rappeling with the haulbag, through brushy chimneys only to find the end of the rope, and amazingly no rap anchors again, it got dark. well at some point you (we) have to cut your losses. And setting up the ledge, so we could sit down, began to seem the right choice. Seeing stars, and having good weather (to that point) we forgot to hang the fly ( early model A5 ), above the ledge. Instead it was tucked neatly, below all the empty beer cans. I don't remember falling asleep as much as I remember waking up, in the middle of the night, to the sound of rain dripping on something. Then more, and more, and then to our horror, the lighter would not work. nothing like being hungery, and drunk. When morning came, we managed to get the lighter working ( or we would have died right there ) and smoked a couple bowls, to get our senses back. It musta worked, cause the chimney ended, and we found some roots to rappel off, than a couple RP's, then we were on the ground. Soaking wet, walking, with a haulbag, in a rainstorm, and a car pulls up. I am thinking hell yeah I want a ride, but the driver rolls down the window, and smirks, (dangler I believe) what were you boys up to.... Climbing, what the f*%# you think..... I mean what route, I saw you struggling last night going up and down....
Now at this point, I have to say, normally, honesty is a big deal in my life. I don't lie, chip holds, or even comfortize holds. But who pulls up, to two soaking wet, drunk in the morning climbers, covered in dirt and mud, and starts asking what route we just got off. So we lied, and lied , and lied some more.... beautiful handcracks we said, marvelous FA, you got to go do it, at every belay there is a ledge...and so on... We even gave our first descent a name to the driver. He drove off and didn't even offer us a ride. I remember thinking I was glad to lie to him.
So we went back to the campground, and began drying our gear. At some point in the day we sobered up enough to go bouldering. The first bouldering we found, had ugly, shamefull drilled pockets. It could have been the booze, from the few days long bender, or even the lack of drinking water, but when I saw those drilled holes, I puked all over the nearest bush. Which brings me back to my original ?? How did those drilled holes get in the boulder??
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rocknroll
Feb 11, 2005, 9:28 AM
Post #225 of 667
(71919 views)
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Registered: Apr 26, 2003
Posts: 111
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Great story, Milktoast!
Live life to the fullest!!
In reply to: Drink To Puke! ---D.L.F.A. motto |
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