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russman
Feb 23, 2004, 5:18 AM
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Rumours about Dreamtime being chipped have been circulating on the web for quite a while now. We at 8a.nu didn't want to publish anything before all the facts were known. This is a kind of delicate matter and we wanted to avoid the risk of misunderstanding anything. This is what Fred Nicole and Mary Gabrieli say:
"We wanted to wait with all this, but after reading Malcolm's news we thought it's the moment to make it public.
This weekend we were in Ticino and met Toni Lamprecht and Bernd Zangerl and discussed the problem of the chipped holds in Cresciano (and other places too). We will try to do a bigger article together to speak again about ethics and respect for places and nature and also the respects of the people.
The list would be much bigger and not only in famous problems. We guessed 98% of the problems were cleaned with a lot of energy after the first ascents! One of the big problems can be the steel brush some people use to clean even when they try something that has already been climbed. Some must have used more than just a brush... we are still wondering why they think they need to find more holds or bigger holds- maybe just to say the have done a certain grade or a famous boulder problem? To say it's easier? They will never know it if they don't try it with the original holds anyway.
Many problems in Cresciano have been downgraded and people think it's easy rated in Switzerland. What they don't know (or they know?) it's that most of them have been manipulated.
1st example and maybe the saddest one because of the beauty of the line:
Dreamtime: a few holds at the first part of the problem + the holds before the jump (specially the vertical with the left hand) + the big edge at the end.
La Soucoupe: the original way (8B/+) does not exist anymore since an edge has appeared in the middle of the crux.
La Proue: most people start using a pile of rocks. The right hand edge at the beginning grew in a mysterious way.
La Grotte des soupire: which was downgraded from 8A+ to 7C/C+ because what was a tiny edge became a big jug!"
This is no doubt something that needs to be discussed and dealt with by the whole bouldering community. Chipping has to be stopped!
...as reported from http://www.8a.nu/site/ on 2-17-04
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sbclimber
Feb 23, 2004, 7:24 AM
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that really sucks.
While the quality of routes here in SB isn't the same I'm sure, it still pisses me off to see things in the rock that didn't used to be there. (which has happened here)
Whether it's new holds or lack of holds (b/c some idiot didn't wait long enough after a rain), it pisses me off.
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overlord
Feb 23, 2004, 4:17 PM
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i hope you catch the ones who did it and chip THEM.
couldnt you just "rule out" the artifical holds in some cases. like dreamtime, it soudns to me like you could just make the new holds off limits and tell that whoever uses them is actually climbing an A0 aid climb and not V15 boulder.
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torvum
Feb 23, 2004, 7:31 PM
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You could do that, but then the problem gets crazy contrived. Like, what if a rock fell of naturally, would that be part of the problem now or not? Once, a hold is added, taken away, made bigger, made smaller, the whole thing has to change. Thats my take anyway...
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couloir
Feb 24, 2004, 2:53 AM
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"couldnt you just "rule out" the artifical holds in some cases. like dreamtime, it soudns to me like you could just make the new holds off limits and tell that whoever uses them is actually climbing an A0 aid climb and not V15 boulder."
Unfortunately that sounds like gym climbing. The main issue is destruction to the environment. It doesn't matter what holds are there if we're no longer allowed to climb there because officials banned climbing due to destruction of the environment.
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gbschmitt
Feb 24, 2004, 1:34 PM
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Hide in the woods with a shotgun. :twisted:
Gert
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ropeburn
Feb 25, 2004, 2:14 AM
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...and a baseball bat.
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raingod
Feb 25, 2004, 3:49 AM
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Dreamtime can't have seen that many ascents. I wonder how many have come after the chipping and if the chipper has actually sent....
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slabmaster
Feb 25, 2004, 11:16 PM
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All you have to do is keep your ears open. The idiot(s) who do such things can't keep their mouths closed about it. They will brag about it eventually. Ask a few questions (like 'when' witnesses', etc.) and the answers won't jive. Criminals almost always brag.
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drrock
Feb 26, 2004, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: that really sucks. While the quality of routes here in SB isn't the same I'm sure, it still pisses me off to see things in the rock that didn't used to be there. (which has happened here) Whether it's new holds or lack of holds (b/c some idiot didn't wait long enough after a rain), it pisses me off.
I may be ignorant. Ok, I am ignorant. What happens to holds if used after a rain?
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collegekid
Mar 1, 2004, 1:47 AM
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sandstone becomes very soft after it rains, such that holds will break off if climbed on before the rock is dry. I'm not sure of other rock types, though.
I don't think there is really a way to prevent people from chipping, besides teaching people ethics. Even if routes are no longer graded, people will still chip so that they can climb a famous boulder problem, or to bring a certain problem to their level (regardless of grade).
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overlord
Mar 5, 2004, 11:31 AM
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In reply to: "couldnt you just "rule out" the artifical holds in some cases. like dreamtime, it soudns to me like you could just make the new holds off limits and tell that whoever uses them is actually climbing an A0 aid climb and not V15 boulder." Unfortunately that sounds like gym climbing. The main issue is destruction to the environment. It doesn't matter what holds are there if we're no longer allowed to climb there because officials banned climbing due to destruction of the environment.
yes, but if you wouldnt accept their ascents as clean, they would eventually give it up becasue they couldnt claim the ascent. i hope :wink: but theyre probably to stupid to care anyway.
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