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ACLSRN
Jul 8, 2011, 1:37 PM
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Just starting to get back into climbing again and many years out of the sport - and I see that any ice tools today are sporting 'leash-less' designs.
Back when I climbed it was considered common knowledge that the use of wrist leashes and such took much of the strain off of one's arms, etc. and prevented the loss of one's tool(s) when climbing.
Why the leash-less change I wonder?
PS Not trolling here at all - just trying to understand what concept(s) brought about this change of what was once considered the 'norm' in steep vertical ice climbing...
????
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Sheldon
Jul 8, 2011, 2:07 PM
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Try it, you'll see.
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ACLSRN
Jul 8, 2011, 4:22 PM
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That I will have to do - not sure tho if my Black Prophet's I just bought tho lightly used are gonna be conducive of going leash-less by their design!
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rangerrob
Jul 10, 2011, 1:18 AM
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There are many benefits to leashless climbing. One of the biggest is the ability to switch hands easily, as well as shake out quickly. The new shaft designs reduce overall fatigue if used properly. Leashless really comes into it's own on extremely steep funky ice and mixed climbing, where lots of delicate crossing and switching is required. if all you're doing is running up the standard grade 3 and 4 flows, I would see no reason to switch to a leashless tool.
The rapid advance in efficiency of ice climbing gear is allowing relatively new ice climbers to climb very hard quickly...often times making them think they are qualified to lead such routes without having the vast knowledge built up from years of climbing easier ice. It has had some serious side effects.
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ACLSRN
Jul 10, 2011, 1:21 AM
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I can imagine....
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moose_droppings
Jul 10, 2011, 2:27 AM
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You can also get tethers to keep from losing them.
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kiwiprincess
Jul 10, 2011, 5:37 AM
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If your axe is leashless. You can shake out,as much as you like, there fore you don't get pumped enough to drop it. i find this most beneficial when placing or removing a screw. Wobbly hits will be a thing of the past! People probably realised that from sport climbing.
If you are climbing not just a waterfall but a big mountain and dropping axes would be a disaster a third tool or umbilical leashes May be a good idea. I worried about it mixed climbing where I'm desperate and hanging my axe random places while using my hand briefly, but not ice.
More blood flowing, plus the handle shape keeping your hand off the ice, You don't get bashed knuckles, Wet gloves, or as cold. No more (or less) screaming barfies. (because of this I wear thinner more dextrous gloves, clipping is easier too)
Traverses are so much easier, when you can swap hands freely
I wore my leashes ready to attach for a while just incase but never needed them.
You need something at least like a Quark with the hooks at the base, though.
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granite_grrl
Jul 11, 2011, 2:25 PM
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Basically it's just more fun IMO. Lots of people have covered things you're able to do more easily when leashless, but what it boils down to is the freedom it gives you.
It's not for everyone I'm sure, but it's worth playing with and seeing if it's for you.
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ACLSRN
Jul 11, 2011, 3:11 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: Basically it's just more fun IMO. Lots of people have covered things you're able to do more easily when leashless, but what it boils down to is the freedom it gives you. It's not for everyone I'm sure, but it's worth playing with and seeing if it's for you.
True - it's just that I'm not sure the BD Black Prophet's are really a 'leashless' tool by shape, etc.
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petsfed
Jul 11, 2011, 3:33 PM
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ACLSRN wrote: granite_grrl wrote: Basically it's just more fun IMO. Lots of people have covered things you're able to do more easily when leashless, but what it boils down to is the freedom it gives you. It's not for everyone I'm sure, but it's worth playing with and seeing if it's for you. True - it's just that I'm not sure the BD Black Prophet's are really a 'leashless' tool by shape, etc.
Oh, they aren't. They were produced before leashless tools came into vogue. The newest Cobras, Vipers, and Quarks are the hybrid tools of today. You've also got the Nomics, Ergos, Fusions, and Reactors that were never meant to have leashes.
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ACLSRN
Jul 11, 2011, 3:36 PM
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Yes that's what I thought - that the Prophet's weren't of the new leashless design, etc.
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sandstone
Jul 11, 2011, 6:13 PM
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ACLSRN wrote: Yes that's what I thought - that the Prophet's weren't of the new leashless design, etc.
Lots of people cobbled together home made attachments to their existing tools to try out leashless when leashless first starting becoming popular. I don't really see that anymore -- tools have come a long way since then.
Being a cheap bastard, I was a late adopter of leashless, climbing on my old straight shafted tools far longer than I should have. I eventually bought the original BD Viper, and used them with leashes the first season i had them. The BD Android leash system is quite good (not perfect, but a very good system).
I started leaving the leashes off, and to be honest didn't feel much of any difference in security, and I gained the already mentioned leashless benefits of switching hands, shaking out, etc.
I sold the old Vipers to a friend and now have the new Viper. They're set up so they will accept leashes, and the leashes still get thrown in the bottom of the pack for most trips, but I haven't used them in at least a couple of years.
rangerrob wrote: ... Leashless really comes into it's own on extremely steep funky ice and mixed climbing, where lots of delicate crossing and switching is required. if all you're doing is running up the standard grade 3 and 4 flows, I would see no reason to switch to a leashless tool.
I totally agree with your first sentence, but I find that leashless is also beneficial on grade 3/4 climbs, due to their sometimes awkward ledgy/bulgy nature.
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csproul
Jul 13, 2011, 2:37 PM
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After not ice climbing in several years, I tried leashless for the first time last year. I'll never go back. Try it.
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ACLSRN
Jul 13, 2011, 2:41 PM
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csproul wrote: After not ice climbing in several years, I tried leashless for the first time last year. I'll never go back. Try it.
I'd love to but don't think my current Black Diamond Prophets are 'conducive' of going leashless d/t their handle configuration....
I am looking at perhaps add a Petzl Quark or Charlet this winter to my arsenal. Any suggestions which might be a better choice? I'd like to stay in the less than $200 range if I can...
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sungam
Jul 13, 2011, 2:55 PM
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ACLSRN wrote: csproul wrote: After not ice climbing in several years, I tried leashless for the first time last year. I'll never go back. Try it. I'd love to but don't think my current Black Diamond Prophets are 'conducive' of going leashless d/t their handle configuration.... I am looking at perhaps add a Petzl Quark or Charlet this winter to my arsenal. Any suggestions which might be a better choice? I'd like to stay in the less than $200 range if I can...
I don't think Petzl makes a tool called the Charlet, but rather the full name of their ice line, "Petzl Charlet" Since the company Petzl bought the ice gear company Charlet Moser.
If you can't afford a pair straight off, can't you just try a friend's pair?
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csproul
Jul 13, 2011, 2:57 PM
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I went to an ice festival last year and got to try out pretty much every new toy on the market. It was awesome. Try before you buy.
I really liked the Quarks, but I think it'll be a lot of personal preference.
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ACLSRN
Jul 13, 2011, 3:22 PM
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$200 per tool.
I got both Prophet's lightly used for $160 - so I was happy!
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Rudmin
Jul 13, 2011, 4:04 PM
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ACLSRN wrote: $200 per tool. I got both Prophet's lightly used for $160 - so I was happy!
I bought the Grivel X Monsters for $100 per tool here. I think it's a pretty good deal. http://www.mec.ca/..._id=2534374302691849
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ACLSRN
Jul 13, 2011, 4:05 PM
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Rudmin wrote: ACLSRN wrote: $200 per tool. I got both Prophet's lightly used for $160 - so I was happy! I bought the Grivel X Monsters for $100 per tool here. I think it's a pretty good deal. http://www.mec.ca/..._id=2534374302691849
I had looked at them online and wondered how they were/are!
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Rudmin
Jul 13, 2011, 4:16 PM
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ACLSRN wrote: Rudmin wrote: ACLSRN wrote: $200 per tool. I got both Prophet's lightly used for $160 - so I was happy! I bought the Grivel X Monsters for $100 per tool here. I think it's a pretty good deal. http://www.mec.ca/..._id=2534374302691849I had looked at them online and wondered how they were/are!
I like them but I don't have much ice experience on anything else. I have heard only good opinions (many about the price) and haven't heard anyone say that they hated them.
The only complaint that I have heard is that the bare steel shaft is painful to match on. This can be solved by sticking on the rubber "snake" grips they come with or applying your own tape/padding to the shaft. The steel is probably a bit heavier than aluminum so the COG isn't as far out as other tools.
Oh and the pick/head is replaceable, but you have to file or drill out the old bolts which are peened on the end and replace them with your own. I think they are metric, but the closest imperial bolt will fit close enough.
(This post was edited by Rudmin on Jul 13, 2011, 4:19 PM)
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ACLSRN
Jul 13, 2011, 4:20 PM
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"....ainful to match on. This can be solved by sticking on the rubber "snake" grips they come with or applying your own tape/padding to the shaft.
Match on? I don't understand...
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Rudmin
Jul 13, 2011, 4:23 PM
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ACLSRN wrote: "....ainful to match on. This can be solved by sticking on the rubber "snake" grips they come with or applying your own tape/padding to the shaft. Match on? I don't understand... ????
haha, I guess you really haven't climbed leashless before. There is a whole world of possibilities.
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ACLSRN
Jul 13, 2011, 4:24 PM
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Rudmin wrote: ACLSRN wrote: "....ainful to match on. This can be solved by sticking on the rubber "snake" grips they come with or applying your own tape/padding to the shaft. Match on? I don't understand... ???? haha, I guess you really haven't climbed leashless before. There is a whole world of possibilities.
Nope....haven't climbed since the late 80's or so....a lot has changed I am now finding out.
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petsfed
Jul 14, 2011, 12:15 AM
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The idea is that you can match hands on a single tool, just like you can match hands on a single hold. This is great for traversing or most any other time where having both tools in front of you interferes with the climbing. Before I got the strike and fang for my vipers, I would pop in and out of the leashes constantly if I had to traverse. So much easier now that they're leashless.
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ACLSRN
Jul 14, 2011, 12:21 AM
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petsfed wrote: The idea is that you can match hands on a single tool, just like you can match hands on a single hold. This is great for traversing or most any other time where having both tools in front of you interferes with the climbing. Before I got the strike and fang for my vipers, I would pop in and out of the leashes constantly if I had to traverse. So much easier now that they're leashless.
Aren't climbers concerned with dropping 1 of their tools during a climb especially if they only are carrying 2 and not a back up 3rd tho?
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