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limeydave
Jun 29, 2008, 11:53 AM
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sungam wrote: limeydave wrote: sungam wrote: limeydave wrote: Meh. We used to tie in with a biner to the belay loop all the time back in the day. I don't remember anyone ever having an issue. 'Course the followthru fig 8 through the leg and waist loops adds a little redundancy, saves a biner and also has never been a significant cause of injuries that weren't pilot error either. One thing that has been around since the inception of climbing though: Safety Snobs. Yeah, they way you know is the right way, and everyone else is dangerous. They should make a bud light commercial highlighting that "We salute YOU, Mr My Way is the only way you won't die, climber" Edit: Not aimed at you naked dude... You are te_h ghey. And your bud advert is lame. Go away. I think we need a Hadrians Wall for the internet. Stop the drunk Scots from spilling over into civilization. Drunk? get to feck. I'm at work. Also, everyone knows that the scot's just let hadrians wall be. it was a "you stay your side of the wall and not enter scotland, and we'll pretend that puny wall could stop US." Ain't sympathy a bitch?
It was pretty puny wasn't it?
Some spots weren't 3ft tall. Haha.
Perhaps we thought you'd all be so drunk you'd trip over it and pass out
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sungam
Jun 29, 2008, 12:37 PM
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limeydave wrote: sungam wrote: limeydave wrote: sungam wrote: limeydave wrote: Meh. We used to tie in with a biner to the belay loop all the time back in the day. I don't remember anyone ever having an issue. 'Course the followthru fig 8 through the leg and waist loops adds a little redundancy, saves a biner and also has never been a significant cause of injuries that weren't pilot error either. One thing that has been around since the inception of climbing though: Safety Snobs. Yeah, they way you know is the right way, and everyone else is dangerous. They should make a bud light commercial highlighting that "We salute YOU, Mr My Way is the only way you won't die, climber" Edit: Not aimed at you naked dude... You are te_h ghey. And your bud advert is lame. Go away. I think we need a Hadrians Wall for the internet. Stop the drunk Scots from spilling over into civilization. Drunk? get to feck. I'm at work. Also, everyone knows that the scot's just let hadrians wall be. it was a "you stay your side of the wall and not enter scotland, and we'll pretend that puny wall could stop US." Ain't sympathy a bitch? It was pretty puny wasn't it? Some spots weren't 3ft tall. Haha. Perhaps we thought you'd all be so drunk you'd trip over it and pass out
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jt512
Jun 29, 2008, 11:23 PM
Post #53 of 79
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sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: IclimbNAKED wrote: Well, that's a perfectly acceptable solution. I thought you made perfect sense when you said learn to bowline, it seems implicit that if there is only one thing named the bowline involved in climbing, then learning to tie such a knot is to "learn to bowline." Except that isn't how English works. "Learn to bowline" no more means "learn to tie a bowline" than "learn to shoe" means "learn to put on a shoe", or "learn to car" means "learn to drive." Jay Like learn to fist does not mean learn how to punch some dude inna face?
I wish I'd said that.
Jay
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moose_droppings
Jun 29, 2008, 11:56 PM
Post #54 of 79
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limeydave wrote: Meh. We used to tie in with a biner to the belay loop all the time back in the day.
Wow, what a generation gap.
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limeydave
Jun 30, 2008, 12:45 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: limeydave wrote: Meh. We used to tie in with a biner to the belay loop all the time back in the day. Wow, what a generation gap.
Actually the sport has come a long way in the past 15/20 years, it really does feel like a new generation.
Bouldering Pads - Climbing Gyms in every city - Sport Crags. Some of it may be the difference between UK and USA, but really I think tying in has evolved with the rest of the sport drastically and quickly.
Perhaps another discussion for another time.
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sungam
Jun 30, 2008, 8:37 AM
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Limey, I'm guessing your from the UK, then?
Where abouts, and where abouts in NC are you?
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limeydave
Jun 30, 2008, 1:42 PM
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sungam wrote: Limey, I'm guessing your from the UK, then? Where abouts, and where abouts in NC are you?
I grew up in Reading - went to Leeds and spent my college years on Yorkshire Grit, lived in Phoenix for a while, California for a while, now I'm in Raleigh.
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sungam
Jun 30, 2008, 7:45 PM
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Sweet. I've been around scotland for the last 8 or 9 years. I'm heading over the chapel hill for a for months some time this year (was ment to be for the month of augest and a bit of sept, but now I'm out of school so later= cheaper and more conviniant).
Ive yet to get on grit :-/
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limeydave
Jun 30, 2008, 7:53 PM
Post #59 of 79
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sungam wrote: Sweet. I've been around scotland for the last 8 or 9 years. I'm heading over the chapel hill for a for months some time this year (was ment to be for the month of augest and a bit of sept, but now I'm out of school so later= cheaper and more conviniant). Ive yet to get on grit :-/
Just give me a shout when you come out.
There's a good Irish pub and plenty of good climbing to be had.
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sungam
Jun 30, 2008, 8:50 PM
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limeydave wrote: sungam wrote: Sweet. I've been around scotland for the last 8 or 9 years. I'm heading over the chapel hill for a for months some time this year (was ment to be for the month of augest and a bit of sept, but now I'm out of school so later= cheaper and more conviniant). Ive yet to get on grit :-/ Just give me a shout when you come out. There's a good Irish pub and plenty of good climbing to be had.
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sungam
Jun 30, 2008, 8:51 PM
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Oh yeah, and we can talk about if right unconquerable or Centurion is harder ;)
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moondog
Jul 1, 2008, 6:41 PM
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shoo wrote: Let's all get a little realistic here. Steel biners are ridiculously strong. Minor axis strength, usually the weakest, is usually above or around 10kn. You aren't going to go even close to the breaking strength of one of those pretty much no matter how hard you try in a gym. You aren't.
Many accidents have occurred due to a single attachment 'biner accidentally unclipping from the harness.
The best method to attach a belay rope to a climbing harness is to tie the rope directly to the harness using a rethreaded figure 8 knot. However, from a practical perspective, there are times when locking carabiners may be used as a more expedient means of attachment, especially in commercial climbing operations.
When locking carabiners are used to attach a belay rope to a climber’s seat harness, it is very important to remember that:
• Two (2) locking carabiners must be used with gates opposed and locked; never use a single carabiner to attach a belay rope to a harness.
• The 2-carabiner attachment method may be used only for top rope climbing, with no slack in the rope. For lead climbing, the rope should be tied directly to the harness with a rethreaded figure 8 knot
(This post was edited by moondog on Jul 1, 2008, 8:36 PM)
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shoo
Jul 1, 2008, 7:03 PM
Post #63 of 79
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moondog wrote: Many accidents have occurred due to a single attachment 'biner accidentally unclipping from the harness. That is why two lockers (reversed and opposed) should be used instead of one.
I don't disagree that it would be safer, but do you really want two bulky 'biners in your belay loop for no good reason?
Summary:
A single locking biner is reasonably safe, but not ideal. 2 lockers opposite and opposed is far less likely to unclip itself, but is a bunch of clutter and more time consuming. Either of these methods is fine for "amusement" purposes, but any real climber should avoid these and know better.
Tie a damn knot. End of story.
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IclimbNAKED
Jul 1, 2008, 10:08 PM
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Tying-in is ideal, but you can't expect new gym patrons to be adept enough to tie a proper figure-eigth or worse yet a proper bowline if it's their first time climbing. Let's not forget that climbing gyms, especially privately established ones (read: not at university rec centres), probably make most of their money from group sessions, not from their members. Clipping in is much easier to inspect than tying in. My gym uses autolocking biners that would likely remain closed through many bumps and twists.
It's kind of like how my gym atleast uses GriGris on the ropes where the autolocking biners are tied on. Personally, I feel that GriGri use might be conducive to complacency (on top-rope belays, not lead) since they have a lot more friction than say an ATC, so not as much care need to given.
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shoo
Jul 1, 2008, 11:08 PM
Post #65 of 79
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IclimbNAKED wrote: Tying-in is ideal, but you can't expect new gym patrons to be adept enough to tie a proper figure-eigth or worse yet a proper bowline if it's their first time climbing. Let's not forget that climbing gyms, especially privately established ones (read: not at university rec centres), probably make most of their money from group sessions, not from their members. Clipping in is much easier to inspect than tying in. My gym uses autolocking biners that would likely remain closed through many bumps and twists.
No. You can absolutely expect people to know how to belay and tie in properly. I work at a gym which does. If you can't pass a belay test, you can't climb. We offer classes for a reason. Most gyms I've encountered have similar policies.
Grigris, autolocking carabiners, auto-locking harness buckles, and carabiner "tye-ins" are all on my shit list for crap beginners shouldn't be exposed to if they intend on climbing more than once.
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moondog
Jul 2, 2008, 12:06 AM
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IclimbNAKED wrote: My gym uses autolocking biners that would likely remain closed through many bumps and twists.
Does your gym require the use of two autolockers? Accidents can happen using any kind of autolocker if the carabiner isn't properly closed when the climber leaves the ground. Failure to inspect carabiners for proper closure is believed to be the cause of several accidents.
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IclimbNAKED
Jul 2, 2008, 12:14 AM
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Yeah, I agree with you that serious climbers should all tie-in and belay with proficiency. But when a birthday session is in for 2 hours are your gonna make the kids the learn to to tie-in and belay with an ATC, showing enough proficiency to pass a belay check? No, you aren't, unless you want that to be the last group that ever comes in. From a business perpective it makes absolutely no sense.
Which addresses the use of autolockers and GriGris. My gym tries to avoid accidents as best it can be making all climbers get a staff check everytime they hook up if they aren't belay checked by the gym. This way they avoid improperly closed biner catastrophes.
(This post was edited by IclimbNAKED on Jul 2, 2008, 12:16 AM)
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shoo
Jul 2, 2008, 12:47 AM
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IclimbNAKED wrote: But when a birthday session is in for 2 hours are your gonna make the kids the learn to to tie-in and belay with an ATC, showing enough proficiency to pass a belay check? No, you aren't, unless you want that to be the last group that ever comes in. From a business perpective it makes absolutely no sense.
That's why staff belays b-day parties and ties the kids in. Our particular gym has an age requirement for belaying. Under it, someone's who passed a belay test needs to belay you. Over it, you need to know how to belay and tie yourself in. Simple requirement, fairly effective.
The best way to avoid accidents is to have competent climbers. Period.
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IclimbNAKED
Jul 2, 2008, 1:01 AM
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Yeah now that I think of it our staff belay kids, but kids belay too. I think 10 is the age limit for GriGri use, but the kids mainly climb on the autolockers and aren't tied in for time's sake too.
I agree with you that the best way to avoid catastrophes is to ensure that climbers are competent and confident.
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shoo
Jul 2, 2008, 1:11 AM
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I believe you are referring to auto-belays, not autolockers. Autolocker is the general term of an assisted locking carabiner. Autobelays are devices which automatically take up slack and arrest falls. Fear not, I hate those too.
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IclimbNAKED
Jul 2, 2008, 1:16 AM
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No no, I meant that kids are generally clipped in to ropes attached to autolocking biners because untying a figure eight, which they don't know how to tie in the first place, would probably result in the kids requiring staff assistance as well, so the autolocking biners are used for easy in easy out.
We only have one auto-belay and kids are terrified of it ahaha.
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sungam
Jul 2, 2008, 11:28 AM
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auto belays are the shizzle!
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cracklover
Jul 2, 2008, 1:19 PM
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IclimbNAKED wrote: No no, I meant that kids are generally clipped in to ropes attached to autolocking biners because untying a figure eight, which they don't know how to tie in the first place, would probably result in the kids requiring staff assistance as well, so the autolocking biners are used for easy in easy out.
Let me get this perfectly clear. You are stating that kids at birthday parties are responsible for clipping themselves in and out of the (single) auto-locking biners? This is to save time and avoid the requirement of "staff assistance"?
This is not only unsafe, but incredibly irresponsible. Kids neither understand the mechanics of the attachment, nor the consequences of failing to do it correctly, nor have the judgment to know whether they've clipped in correctly or not.
It's very easy to clip a biner in to webbing in such a way that the webbing is caught in the notch of the biner, keeping the gate from shutting correctly.
Your gym, if it actually follows the practice you say it does, is just begging for an injury, a lawsuit, or worse.
GO
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Carnage
Jul 2, 2008, 1:47 PM
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cracklover wrote: ... Kids neither understand the mechanics of the attachment, nor the consequences of failing to do it correctly, nor have the judgment to know whether they've clipped in correctly or not. ...
if you work at a gym for any amount of time, you realize that it is not just kids who lack this skill...
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IclimbNAKED
Jul 2, 2008, 9:43 PM
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Sorry, if I'm being unclear. I meant that the kids are supposed to clip themselves in, then the staff who are in charge of their group must give them a check every single time before they begin climbing. This also saves time over helping kids tie-in and then checking everything as autolocking carabiners are a relatively easy method of attaching oneself to cordage.
I agree that letting kids clip themselves in and jump on the walls without a check would be incredibly irresponsible. But that's not what my gym does, thank goodness, or I don't think they'd still be operational.
(This post was edited by IclimbNAKED on Jul 2, 2008, 10:53 PM)
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