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angelaa
Jul 25, 2003, 3:36 PM
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We had a heated discussion at the gym last night when we were setting routes.
**One route setter thinks that gym climbs should be 'over rated' to make new climbers feel good about themselves, and want to continue climbing. He also talked about how most climbing areas are "sandbagged" anyways so it doesn't really matter, and that the YDS doesn't make sense now anyway b/c it is up to 5.15. One point was made that most wall climbers won't actually ever climb outside anyway, so ratings are irrelevant.
**One route setter thinks that gym climbs should be rated honestly so that new climbers don't get a false sense of security and get themselves in trouble (or get discouraged) when they climb outside for the first time.
I'm not a gym climber, and I don't claim to know the etiquette at a wall, but I tend to agree with rating routes that I set honestly. I don't think that someone over rating routes is going to make me a better climber just because I 'feel good' about a route on the wall.
i.e. - one route that was rated a 5.10 was overhanging, but all the holds were good and I nearly onsited it, & I don't onsite 5.10's. . . I would have rated it an 8!
anyway - - let me know your take on this, and let me know what your gym does. . .
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enzo
Jul 25, 2003, 4:36 PM
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a gym climb should be rated like an outdoor climb, for the more experianced climbers in mind. My gym sometimes rates stuff lower than outdoor climbs. My first time outdoors I did a 5.10c fairly easy, it made me feel good. Climbing should not all be based aroiund the beginner. I started in a gym and I was perfectly fine with the system. It forced me to work harder and harder. And climbing should not be based around the grade. The grade is just a guide. I feel that indoior climbs should definatly be rated as either equal or easier than outdoor climbs. then when the climber first goes outdoor he won't be overwhelmed.
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xanx
Jul 25, 2003, 4:36 PM
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we have a gym near here in Philadelphia called Go Vertical that follows the first strategy.... i can work V7 there! a friend of mine leads 5.12 there! but in reality the v7 is like a v5 or whatever and the 5.12 is like 5.10. My home gym, Vertical Reality, doesn't grade anything except for competitions. We figure, first off, it is pointless because it is a gym! if u do something u couldn't do last week, u improved. it's not like u could die b/c u started up a really hard route w/out knowing it. Also, everyone grades differently, so it would be a bit meaningless - "our" v5 might feel like v4 to someone else or v6 to someone else depending on where they are from.
plus not rating stuff helps to prevent people from getting stuck on numbers...
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cliffhanger2040
Jul 25, 2003, 4:40 PM
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It does seem that indoor climbs are easier. If you had tape at every hand and foothold on a route outside telling you where to put your hand next it would seem easier also. Once you have an outside route dialed and know every move, there may not be very much difference in the ratings between inside and outside. :?
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paulv7
Jul 25, 2003, 4:49 PM
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I don't think it matters if the gym rates higher or lower than the outside areas around it. As long as the ratings within the gym are somewhat consistent. Most places from crag to crag the rating varies, it also depends what your good at climbing.
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petsfed
Jul 25, 2003, 4:59 PM
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Internal consistency is the key. I'm a big fan of the easy, moderate, hard school of grades, such that me (as an intermediate climber) can flash the easy's, work the mods, and flail on the hards. Unfortunately, all of our route setters are notorious hard persons (one of them is rumored to solo 5.9 offwidth for fun) so everything is kind of skewed. The competetion grades are much more accurate in my opinion. Simple point values. That's all.
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alwaysforward
Jul 25, 2003, 5:20 PM
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I think it's a good idea to have some short jugfests given different ratings for the little kids. Poor employee belay slaves have to haul birthday parties up 5.8's all the time. Put in a "5.8" they can climb over in the corner or something. At least I would.
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redpoint73
Jul 25, 2003, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: One route setter thinks that gym climbs should be 'over rated' to make new climbers feel good about themselves
I feel sorry for anyone that needs to be lied to in order to "feel good about themselves".
Anyhow, one reason the the rating system exists is to chart your progress. If you don't progress through the ratings, you aren't getting better. Regardless of how soft the ratings are.
In reply to: He also talked about how most climbing areas are "sandbagged" anyways so it doesn't really matter
If this guy really thinks that most area are sandbagged, then he truly has no idea what he is talking about and he needs to get out more.
Anyway, the statement makes no sense whatsoever. Just think about it. Climbing ratings are purely subjective. Climbs are rated relative to each other. Whether an area is sandbag or not is also relative to other areas. If ratings at "most" or a majority of areas represent a certain difficulty, than that is by default the "standard", and therefore not sandbag. Its like saying "most people are short". Compared to what standard???
Plus, why should you make cushy climbs just for kids? Why should you be encouraging kids to chase big numbers when they should just be focusing on having fun or improving their abilities? If a lot of kids climb at your gym, and they can't get up a 5.8, then your gym should set some 5's, 6's or 7's. Thats what most gyms do.
Consistency is important of course. But obviously, I more closely agree with the second guy.
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cthcrockclimber
Jul 25, 2003, 5:52 PM
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You might think this to be stupid... which it probably is. But personally I think a new rating system should be made for wall climbing because it is different than outdoor rock climbing. Just as ice climbing, bouldering etc.. differ from rock climbing and have their own grading system. I think it sounds good in theory but in practice I dont think it wouldnt be worth it since most indoor wall climbers aren't serious climbers.
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norskagent
Jul 25, 2003, 6:05 PM
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At our gym climbs are rated in a "range" - white = 5.4 - 5.7, yellow = 5.8 - 5.10, and so on. Setters / employees will offer ratings, usually soft to puff their resume'... ("I flashed the 10a (really 11c) that gronk set"), so noobs will think, "gosh, he thinks 5.11 feels like 10a, awesome, I'll never climb 11 at this rate"...I say worry / monitor ratings outdoors, but just use the indoor ones as a rough guide.
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perozee
Jul 25, 2003, 7:02 PM
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I feel if you can't rate it honestly in the GYM or if not sure, better to under rate it. This way a 5.8 indoor climber wont get in trouble in a 5.8 outdoors. Our gym is know to under rate the climbs. I think when the builders get too good 5.12, 5.13+ they loose the ability to evaluate the lower difficulties.
Peace
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michey
Jul 26, 2003, 1:55 AM
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The grade should be as close as you can get to the actual grade for outside. I use to climb at a gym and they were really accurate. I liked that I could get on a 5.12 inside and feel the same outside (minus the extra fear factor). Now it is laughing joke, because they aren't the same and everything is sandbagged. People don't understand why they can do V6 inside but get their butt kicked on V4 outside. They actually believer they can climb V6.
When you are at a gym, generally you can expect it to be off because it takes a lot of work to get the grade to be accurate. You have to have three or more people grade it, and you get closer to what it should be.
Now my training consists from mostly outside, but my own wall in the cold winter months. We don't even bother grading anything, because all I care about now is getting stronger for specific moves. But my point is; if you are going to put a grade on it, it should be accurate.
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xanx
Jul 26, 2003, 2:35 AM
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In reply to: He also talked about how most climbing areas are "sandbagged" anyways so it doesn't really matter
just follow me logic here for a minute...
now if MOST areas are SANDBAGGED, that would mean that a MINORITY of the areas out there are actually ACCURATELY graded...
i think it is therefor not too great a leap to conclude that if a MINORITY of the AREAS are accurate, then a MINORITY of the CLIMBS out there are actually accurate...
now grades are basically a CONSENSUS, that means that the MAJORITY decides what the difficulty of a 5.X should be, and that becomes the standard. Some people may claim that there are certain STANDARDS for grades ("testpieces" to some), and that these SPECIFIC climbs are considered the MOST ACCURATE and that all other grades should thus be based ON THEM. I, however, believe grades should be more of an AVERAGE - what MOST PEOPLE feel is a 5.X.
Aha! Now we arive at our contradiction here. We began by saying that a MAJORITY of the areas are SANDBAGGED, but we then proceded to define an accurate grade based on what the MAJORITY of people feel is correct.
therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the majority of climbs to be INCORRECTLY GRADED if grades are taken to be an AVERAGE.
Get it?
Like, I hope PTPP appreciates this, eh? Of course, i'm just a 'Merrican :wink:
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legless
Jul 26, 2003, 2:57 AM
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im a big fan of internal consistency...as long as the v3s are roughly of the same difficulty as one another ...and they are all harder than the v2s and easier than the v4s then it doesnt much matter how it compares to the outside world (other gyms included). (thats to say whether or not you use the v system is pretty irrelevant in my opinion)
i used to climb at the sandbaggiest gym in the world (highest graded route was usually marked as v5 or so)...it didnt matter though because the routes were graded consistently so you were stoked when you sent the v2 or whatever.
the annoying scenario is when you have people grading all over the charts in the same gym...thats when you get all the kids crying about how they sent some other 5.11 so they are a 5.11 climber but they couldnt climb this one so something is amiss...
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rcaret
Jul 26, 2003, 3:29 AM
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There is nothing ever gained from deception , Keep the rateings as honest as possible ,
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moabbeth
Jul 26, 2003, 4:03 AM
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[quote="angelaa"] One point was made that most wall climbers won't actually ever climb outside anyway, so ratings are irrelevant."]
Let your friend know that wall climbers ARE outside climbers. They climb big huge rocks that would intimidate most GYM climbers :wink: . Gym climbers are gym climbers.
I think gyms are evil - that's just me :wink: . But they should be honestly and accurately setting the grades on routes. Who cares about making people feel warm and fuzzy, all it does is lull them into a false sense of ability that will get them hurt when they eventually get out on the real thing. If anything gym climbs SHOULD be graded hard so that people know what they're getting into when they eventually get outdoors. I don't think the YDS system was invented with crappy plastic holds on indoor walls in mind. I think it would be easier for gym climbers to transitition to the outside if they are climbing solid, accurately graded routes inside. Cause a 5.8 in the gym is nothing like a 5.8 outside, and they'll be in for a shock if a 5.11 inside is what a 5.8 is outside.
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coldclimb
Jul 26, 2003, 4:06 AM
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honesty is everything. If the beginners can't face the fact that they aren't as good as the experts, they're morons. Keep the ratings right.
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henkelj
Jul 26, 2003, 4:27 AM
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I got to say, ratings suck! They change from place to place and don't have any significance if your a real climber. By real I mean one who climbs for the enjoyment of climbing and not to say "yeah I climbed 5.15 today" Especially in boulder where most of the gym climbs seem to suck your D**K and make you think you are way better than you are.
The only place I pay attention to ratings is Trad where I might bust my ass and pancake my skinny ass on the ground if I get in over my head.
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teddy
Jul 28, 2003, 9:53 AM
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I personally think that gym climbs shouldnt be rated at all. You can tell while looking around a gym that climb A is harder than climb B and a different style to climb C and the bouldering cave would cain any beginners etc. Or if you do rate them then make it gym ratings, along the lines of competition points so that you know what you will be able to climb in comps which is what most indoor climbers end up doing. They should be completely unrelated to outdoor climbs as it is a completely different style
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kahuna3602
Jul 28, 2003, 12:27 PM
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I work at a gym so here's my take on it. First you can't compare indoor and outdoor ratings, or indoor and outdoor climbers, they're just too different. Gym climbers are generally of two kinds, climbers that need to maintain fitness and the gym crowd. The gym crowd are just doing it as another kind of workout, aerobics, pilates, spinning, rock climbing (if they only knew!) whatever everyone else is running to these days. They need a rating so they don't hurt themselves. Easy, harder, don't go there would do fine by them. But the climbers who need to maintain fitness need to push at the same level they are climbing. You can't make outdoor conditions indoor (well maybe you can but not everyone is Disney) but you can approximate the amount of effort to complete the route. So that should be the guideline you go by. We have people who set sport outside and have done more than a few FA's and I kinda think they know a little bit about climbing. So rate it fairly. Myself, I'd rather fall off a good 5.10 than onsight a lame 5.12.
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frankfurter
Aug 27, 2003, 10:58 PM
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I too set and would never make people think they're doing better than they are because you're giving them false hope. It's kinda like the Santa Clause theory. Just give it to'em strait....iet.
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deadpointman
Aug 27, 2003, 11:46 PM
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Why complicate things? Rate them the same as if they were outdoors. I climbed at Pacific Edge in Santa Cruz (Ca) a lot this summer. The routes there are pretty true to grade. I found onsighting .10c to be just as hard in the gym as it generally is outdoors. Pacific Edge uses its own bouldering rating system that, I think, works pretty well: Beginner--<5.9, Intermediate--5.9-5.10 Advanced--5.11-5.12 and Expert--5.13+. It does a really good job of cutting down on the amount of spray, making the gym a more tranquil, relaxed place to climb.
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empty
Aug 27, 2003, 11:54 PM
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The gym here in Tucson rates harder than outside. The rationale, and I think it's a good one, is to not build false confidence in people when they do go outside. It seems to me that the soft ratings described above could easily lead people into getting on climbs over their heads outside. I can only hope they have enough sense to climb with more experienced people until they understand what's what.
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