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fo_d
Mar 8, 2002, 5:58 AM
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I'm not a big fan of gym climbing, but when winter drags on you kinda gotta do it every once in a while. So I drag the kids and a belay slave to VE in St. Paul today, (it s the 3ed time ive been in this gym in a little over a year) and we start doing the gym rat thing, but these routes! who set these things? a 5.8+ that I could not finish was the one that got me wanting to meet face to face with the route settrer. are these people who climb 13's and dont really remember what an 8 should be like? or do they like to see people suffer? I finished the night with about 20 pathetic tries on this route and the last 12 I didnt get more that 10' off the ground. I was complining to my partner about the stiffness of the rating at 1st but then i realized who ever did the route used the most punishing, worthless hold available to shred my finger tips. ok I'll stop my whining there but i could go on much longer. are there any others who mainly climb outdoors who noticed this?
Les
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sonofspork
Mar 8, 2002, 6:04 AM
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I don't find this the case in my gym. Everyonce in a while, I will think a route has been rated too hard. That's about it.
-sONofSpORk
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dontneedfeet
Mar 8, 2002, 6:20 AM
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VE's routes are pretty stiff... Espically after a competition. Maybe stiff is the wrong word - their rating system is completely messed up. After the Bouldering Comp, friends of mine along with myself spent much more time on a few problems worth 60 points. Others worth over 300, I sent on my second try.
Point is, last time I was there, the routes from Passion For Flashin' were still up and the ratings on those things are brutal. Wouldn't worry about it...
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fo_d
Mar 8, 2002, 6:34 AM
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I was ranting, I should clairify. Ratings are interesting to me, I will never understand them but I can live in harmony with them. In our area i use Barns bluff, our local sport crag as my standard, the ratings there comapred well with Joshua tree CA. (2000 miles west of us), all the gyms seem to be about one grade harder and the same thing goes for 2 other climbing areas where the rock is quartite, so in these areas and the gym I climb a grade lower, its no big deal, I dont use ratings for an ego booster, just for a guide so i dont waste time getting on routes I cant even give a good try at. but the routes that annoyed me at VE, it was something different, you look at the route from the ground and say this is doable, then you get on it and all moves feel wrong, nothing works right, and the hold you really need tear the s@#$ out of your fingers. it was just weird, thats the only way i can describe it.
Les
dontneedfeet, I'm glad to hear that from you, i was in that comp too and thats one of the reasons i went back tonight was to see if I could climb the routes without the pressure. I couldnt.
[ This Message was edited by: fo_d on 2002-03-07 22:37 ]
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wandt
Mar 8, 2002, 7:36 AM
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Mmmm.... yeah... I really just set stuff like that because I'm mean. Massive moves on the worst crimps I can dig out of the "crap holds" bin. By calling it 5.9 or 5.10- I can generally ensure that enough people will try it to satisfy my sadovoyeuristic tendencies.
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apollodorus
Mar 8, 2002, 9:10 AM
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You should go to Tuolumne Meadows, and try some the "sadistic" routes there: 5.10+, steep, no cracks and VERY runout between bolts. A fall on some of these would be like going down a giant piece of 00 sandpaper.
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kaptk
Mar 8, 2002, 9:11 AM
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The gym I am climbing at right now for my class at school doesn't rate its climbs. I have found though at other gyms that height comes into account when you have some tall guy setting a route, because it makes it more difficult for shorter people.
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dontneedfeet
Mar 8, 2002, 9:18 AM
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Les, try some bouldering upstairs at VE. The holds are great and the problems look easy enough. Then you realize on most of the current routes that the starting feet are the only feet on the problem.
The reasons the holds feel tweaky is because Nicros holds, for the most part, suck.
Of course, all that said, I'm headed there tommorow night. [Sigh] The life of a Minnesotan climber...we need some real rock around here.
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maddie
Mar 8, 2002, 10:07 AM
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Yeah i know what your saying! I was at the gym yesterday and one of the routes was rated a 6 (dam easy) but it was more like a 12 ( easy-medium). I think it depends on who sets them as well cos a different guy did it this time and he sure has a different oppinion on rating the so called "easy" routes than the rest of the climbing population.
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jdtschida
Mar 8, 2002, 1:24 PM
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hey fellow Minnesotans. I always heard VE sucks, but tonight will be my first time down there... I hope it isn't as bad as you say...
In my experience the routes that tall people set are always insane hard, even though they say the route is easy. Tall route setters don't realize that short people have to jump for the holds all the time...
Setting easy routes is harder than most people think. Especially when the setter is a more advanced climber. It is hard to imagine how the route will go for a beginner climber until one actually climbs it and gives feedback about it.
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old_school_guy
Mar 8, 2002, 2:14 PM
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At our little community climbing wall here in western Maine, we have only a couple of rip-out-your-tendons sort of climbs. And we are constantly changing our climbs. But the nice thing about our place is that the testosterone level is a lot lower than some larger commercial walls and outdoor areas. Route setters are razzed if their designs are too hard. There is a lot of joking and camaraderie to take the edge off when you fall. I like the challenge of hard indoor routes - after all, they help a lot with those oh-my-gawd outdoor challeges. But I don't think I would climb at a place where you get seriously dissed for failing. I climb to climb, not to compete.
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pianomahnn
Mar 8, 2002, 4:16 PM
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Ah, Vertical Endeavors, how I hate you so.
I worked for the VE in Warrenville, IL and man is that an evil corporation.
I was one of their best routesetters, and you could always tell my routes from someone elses. Why? They were good!
I prided myself on making a route climable for every person no matter their height. I depise the people who make routes climable for someone 6' or higher. My girlfriend is one hella strong climber, but she's kinda on the short side. She could climb my hard routes without having to dyno or be at full extension, whereas the routes of many other people made her grunt and groan up the s--- routes because they sucked so much.
Tall people don't make the best routes, I've noticed. What they think isn't a distance, really is. And it shows. When you have a 40 foot wall, and there are only 15 holds, it's going to be a reachy crappy route. On our 40 foot wall, my routes had an average of one hold per foot. And they were good. (floating my boat some more)
Route setting isn't for everyone. Although a lot of people think it is. What is one to do, though?
One has to take the good with the bad, plain and simple.
I'll be setting routes at VE this summer I'm sure, so if you're in the area, you can climb some of my phatty cool routes. he he he
Peace
Oh, NICROS holds are lame.
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tyraidbp
Mar 8, 2002, 9:12 PM
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I think your first problem is that you are climbing at VE. That means you have given that company money. Did you know that VE's sister company Nicros donates LESS THAN $1000 per year to the Access Fund. To me, that is just plain crap!!! For a company whose owner drives a Lexus SUV, drinks an obscene amount of Martini's daily, and just built a new home, you would think they could give just a touch more to an organization that does so much for everyone. Enough of my rant about the company, now to the routes. I dont agree with the fact that people who climb harder can not set lower grade routes. You can try to argue this fact with me for as long as you want, I will win!!!! The more you climb, the more you can set lower grades. Ofcourse the exception to this rule, is that little gym rat who thinks because someone once told him that an indoor climb was 5.12, he climbs 5.12. A person like this has no clue how to set any route, not even a 5.8. The route setters for VE are not the best in the world, or else they could set all their own stuff instead of flying people in from other parts of the country to do it. Just my thoughts.
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treyr
Mar 8, 2002, 10:30 PM
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Yeah i that never happens at my gym if anything they are easier than a 5.8
Trob
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fo_d
Mar 8, 2002, 10:53 PM
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tyraidbp, Im not sure if what you say is fact, but I'm inclined to beleive it. I've heard people make vague comments about "VE" the company. but that probly wont stop me from going there next year whan the winter gets too long.
As for the ratings thing, I'm almost 6' so I dont think a tall route setter is the problem. also, I'll admit there was a lady there who hasent been climbing long who climbed it twice without much trouble (the 5.8+ that ticked me off) I think the skills I've developed climbing outdoors dont transfer well to indoor climbing, but it seems to me that indoor climbers seem to be able to adapt well to outdoor climbing. Doesnt matter to me, I'll take real rock over plastic anyday.
Les
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its_me_drew
Mar 8, 2002, 10:59 PM
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First of all I must say that VE sucks, their prices are high, their holds have not been replaced or cleaned in years, and it smells bad. The idiot who chooses to use nicros holds, (as though there are any others at VE )should be slapped, because unless you are a complete retard you would have noticed by now that Nicros holds polish off to a nice smooth peace of plastic in about a month.
As for the fact that their routes are too difficult, well that might not have anything to do with the setting, or the rating system. So many times I've been in there and seen some disguistingly overweight 250lb cow hanging off the rope complaning that she cant get up the wall because its too hard, while using every single hold in reach. The truth is that some people are just not in the right shape for climbing, now I'm not saying that you should not climb, but be realistic about what you can acomplish. If the most excersise you see in a week is when you open and close the refrigirator door, then pehaps even a 5.6 would be too hard for you. Another thing that you have to understand is that most of the routes that you are climbing are the ones that were left over from the competitions, this means that they are relatively unrated, and were given an approximate rating later on. Which means that the person who rated it and the person who set it are not the same. In other words the setter might have intended it to be a 5.9 and some guy came in climbed it and said "ohh that seems like a 5.8" so he told the guy at the desk and thats what they wrote on the peace of paper.
Another thing you have to remember is that setters, when setting a route try to make it more interesting rather than difficult. Which means that the moves required to complete the route will probably be more technical and require more skills. If you come in to climb indoors only a couple of times a year you might lack the skill and the knowlage of how to work the problem successfully. Just because you come into VE and climb the same 5.8 over and over again does not make you a 5.8 climber, you have to have the ability to "THINK" and if you can't do that then you will never be able to anything remotely hard. I also think that the argument of not being tall enough is kind of lame, if you cant reach the hold then chances are there is another method of getting to it rather than just reaching up and grabing it. After all climbing is not supposed to be like climbing a ladder where you repeat the exact same thing over and over again. For example, when Spike Works was still open I set a Route which I rated a 5.8, I did so because I found that the route was not any more difficult or longer reaching, or had smaller holds than any other 5.8 in there at the time. However most people that came in they would try it once or twice, fall off and then give up to go climb another ladder. They would all bitch and say how very difficult it was and that it was much harder than a 5.8. These were the same skill less, thought less people I talked about earlier, because once I showed them how to do the moves, they were going up and down that thing like it was another 5.8 ladder. So next time you see a route that you cant climb, think if its not your fault that you can't climb it before you go blaming everyone else and their mother.
On a side note somebody please open another Gym like Spikeworks or Footprints, and finally put those VE Fuc*ers out of bussines.
And one last thing, to the middle aged guys wearing the short tight purple nylon shorts, DON'T. Nobody wants to look at your package sticking out, so put that thing away and dress in somthing else.
[ This Message was edited by: its_me_drew on 2002-03-08 15:12 ]
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pianomahnn
Mar 8, 2002, 11:24 PM
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Les,
Tyraidbp and myself both worked for VE, along with my awesome girlfriend. No one I know, while or after working for VE, has had anything nice to say about them.
They're bad people for the business. And the reason why VE only has Nicros (SHITTY) holds is because VE and Nicros are owned by the same people. Yes...see where I'm going here...
It's unfortunate that a company with so much money has to be so shitty. They really could do so much, but they spend their money on crap. This Nicros ART Wall stuff? Give me a freaking break. Nasty greasy uncleanable surface that doesn't allow for creative route setting. It's bogus. And the gym in Warrenville is almost entirely Art Wall.
Assmongerers.
If you have a choice, don't climb at Vertical Endeavors. Unless of course you want to climb one of my routes, because they are good routes. I'm serious. I never lie. I'm incapable of lying.
That being said, if you live in the midwest, get ready for one hell of a gym to pop its head out...you won't be disappointed.
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fo_d
Mar 8, 2002, 11:25 PM
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its_me_drew, your tirade kinda pisses me off more than that route, you assume too many things. You assume I'm a fat inexperianced wannabe, (thats what your message says to me anyway). I've only been climbing a little over a year but if you took the time to look at my profile you would maybe see I've been around a bit in that year, some of the things I've done arent even on my profile for various reasons. Next piont: I'm not the only one who thinks the ratings at VE are stiff, but If it was just stiff ratings, I could deal with that, the routes in my range either dont challenge me or are too much of a challenge, there doesnt seem to be any inbetween. But its only plastic man, thats what I keep telling myself anyway. just dont go assuming the worst of me, I havent climbed in a gym that much and as I said in my last post I think it just takes different skills than what I've developed climbing outdoors.
Les
I forgot, I am a little overweght about 10-15 lbs, Im a big person who cant do big dyno's and that ok, let the young skinny people have those, I can work the technical stuff pretty well for a person my size. but I've seen people bigger than me who climb they asses off.
[ This Message was edited by: fo_d on 2002-03-08 15:32 ]
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dontneedfeet
Mar 9, 2002, 12:47 AM
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Does anyone have anything good to say about VE? Besides the fact it beats not climbing?
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hardcoredana
Mar 9, 2002, 1:51 AM
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NO!!!!
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its_me_drew
Mar 9, 2002, 6:40 AM
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I did not mean to insult you, nor did I imply that you were overweight and cant climb. I'm just saying that I dont like VE, and that I dont like the people there, and that the place is turning, or rather has already turned into a fashionable buisiness rathern than a climbing guy, I would compare it to a Starbucks. All experience that I've had with VE has been bad, I really can't say that I've had any good experience with them.
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phil_nev
Mar 9, 2002, 3:40 PM
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i find that the routs at my gym are pretty evenly set. There are some routes that are soft for the grade and some that are ridiculously hard for the grade. I can climb consistent 21/22(5.10d/11a0 but there is still one 1895.10a) i just cant get, no matter what.... oh well, thats the gym for you..............
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gregarion
Mar 9, 2002, 9:23 PM
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I justed wanted to throw something in about the tall route setter that put up reachy routes. In thier defense when your not in a gym the holds are not necessarily going to be set every few feet. Thus there is some advantage to having some reachy routes at a gym so that you can pratice what you will find in nature. So, although the reach may exclude some people from doing the route or just make it harder, it really does need to be done.
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woodman
Mar 10, 2002, 4:22 AM
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Ok, I'll say something nice about VE.
I've climbed only at the Duluth location, and both my sweetie and I really enjoyed it. We weren't swamped by kids or hardcores, and the staff was pleasant enough.
I also like ART wall (local college has one, and that's where I do most of my climbing), but I can see where it becomes a problem over time.
What I DO hate is uncoated plywood gyms. Ick.
ttfn - woody
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maddie
Mar 10, 2002, 5:18 AM
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Its_me_drew you are sooooo right about those guys who think the purple tights are still the way to go! hey everyone, i'm an Aussie so could some1 explain to me why VE is so bad i understand why you guys hate Nicros shitty holds.
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