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SendMasterJack
Feb 23, 2009, 4:12 PM
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I see a lot of folks using their ATCs backwards, even though there is a picture clearly indicating which end of the rope goes to the climber and which is for the brake. not tubluar ATCs, the ones with the friction channel. And its not like these are foks who are new to climbing, i see this people at the gym nightly. A climbing instructor of mine told me once that it is my responsibility to look out for myself and everyone else around me when climbing, this includes pointing out dangerous or improper use of gear. The dilemma is whether or not to tell them while their climber is trying to crush a 5.12. I feel if someone pointed out that I had been using my ATC BACKWARDS, i would feel like an idiot and be pissed at the person for trying to be such a know-it-all, prick, asshole etc. maybe in other gyms its more acceptable to point out mistakes like that, but i feel an overwhelming sense of awkwardness surrounding the subject. I guess it's their problem and if shit happens its their mistake, but all it would take is a stranger to say "hey your thing is backwards" to stop something like that...
comments?
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maldaly
Feb 23, 2009, 4:21 PM
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Hey SMJ,
I think all of the devices you're talking about can b used either way. They're designed with a hi-friction and a low-friction mode. There are a few devices which hav only one way of working: our B52 has only a single mode as did the original Petzl Reverso.
Not a bad idea to watch the people around you and call it out if you think they are doing something dangerous. Do it in a non-accusatory way though. Instead of, "Hey dude, you're using that wrong", make it something like, "How do you like using your XP Guide in the low friction mode?. Their answer will tell you a lot about what they know.
Climb safe,
Mal
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SendMasterJack
Feb 23, 2009, 4:35 PM
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ah thank you. 
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cracklover
Feb 23, 2009, 4:35 PM
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maldaly wrote: Hey SMJ, I think all of the devices you're talking about can b used either way. They're designed with a hi-friction and a low-friction mode. There are a few devices which hav only one way of working: our B52 has only a single mode as did the original Petzl Reverso. Not a bad idea to watch the people around you and call it out if you think they are doing something dangerous. Do it in a non-accusatory way though. Instead of, "Hey dude, you're using that wrong", make it something like, "How do you like using your XP Guide in the low friction mode?. Their answer will tell you a lot about what they know. Climb safe, Mal
Great response, Mal! I have been known to call people out before, in the gym and elsewhere. The best way to do it is to phrase it as a question.
The fact is you (or I) *don't* necessarily know that you know best. You might not be seeing the whole picture. So asking "hey, is your ATC on backwards?" gives you the opportunity to learn that no - it's actually in low friction mode - something you may not have even known about, rather than just creating a confrontation by saying "Hey - you've you've got that on backwards!"
Most of the time folks are grateful when I point out a safety issue to them, but it definitely works both ways! Quite a few years ago, this is how I first learned that harnesses were being made that didn't double back! :)
Cheers,
GO
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apeman_e
Apr 3, 2009, 1:46 PM
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I use only use my atc in low friction mode when top roping- it's very common
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gwyn
Apr 3, 2009, 6:22 PM
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True enough Mal. I've had people question me when I've set mine in low friction mode to belay. I point out that the device has two modes and that with this thick rope and, if top-roping, and the friction in the system, the high friction mode makes for too much friction.
While there are two modes for some ATCs, I have seen people belay with the climber end of the rope coming out the bottom part of the slot and the brake-side coming out the top of the slot. (I wonder if that's also how they set up a double-rope rappel.) When questioned, I usually get the response that they've set it up for a right-hand braking--an issue that isn't relevant using a belay loop and ATC as there really isn't a left/right issue (unlike a no-belay-loop harness). While I don't believe this set up to be necessarily dangerous and may increase friction, it does limit the ability to switch brake hands, should the need arise.
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shoo
Apr 3, 2009, 6:28 PM
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apeman_e wrote: I use only use my atc in low friction mode when top roping- it's very common
I'm actually pretty much the opposite. When top-rope belaying, I'll almost always be in high friction. This is simply because a dynamic belay doesn't really mean anything. I want to make it easy on my hands to lock off fully.
When lead belaying, I'll decide whether or not I want it on high or low friction. I'm a light guy, so I usually just belay in high friction mode and rely on my feet to provide the dynamic belay, especially for heavier climbers. However, it's nice to have a little extra give in the system for when there is little danger in decking and for lighter climbers.
(This post was edited by shoo on Apr 3, 2009, 6:30 PM)
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crazy_fingers84
Apr 3, 2009, 9:11 PM
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I find this kind of interesting... but I have always referred to the different orientations of my ATC XP as "high friction" and "normal friction" mode. Everybody here seems to refer to it as "low friction". I don't think that it is "low friction". It is the exact same as the original ATC... the BD website lists the ATC XP as having "high" and "low" fricition, but it refers to the ATC sport as having "high" and "normal" friction orientations.
I teach belay clinics several times a day at my job. We always use an ATX XP for clinics. I am careful to stress that the device is safe to use either way, but it would be better to use a certain orientation in some situations.
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Neel
Apr 3, 2009, 9:25 PM
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SendMasterJack wrote: The dilemma is whether or not to tell them while their climber is trying to crush a 5.12. I feel if someone pointed out that I had been using my ATC BACKWARDS, i would feel like an idiot and be pissed at the person for trying to be such a know-it-all, prick, asshole etc. maybe in other gyms its more acceptable to point out mistakes like that, but i feel an overwhelming sense of awkwardness surrounding the subject. I guess it's their problem and if shit happens its their mistake, but all it would take is a stranger to say "hey your thing is backwards" to stop something like that... comments?
I've been a member at my gym for a while, i've been leading there for at least 6-8 months a few days a week. I was belaying my partner up a warm-up climb (thankfully nothing that he would likely fall on), and this new employee walks up to me and starts asking me if i was a member and if we had done our lead tests because she had never seen us before, etc. She did this while standing in front of me, while i was belaying. If my partner (who is heavier than me) had fallen, i would have probably kneed her right in the face while catching him. It was rude and dangerous of her to approach me in the middle of a belay - i wasn't doing anything dangerous or wrong, she should have waited until my partner was safely on the ground before doing so.
That being said, I've had another gym employee politely suggest things in a non-obtrusive manner.
If you see something that looks like it might be dangerous, it would be a good idea to point it out - and most climbers would be thankful as long as you did it in a courteous manner. If you don't know if something is dangerous, and feel like a jackass suggesting to the climber/belayer, you could always ask someone else for a 2nd opinion.
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MikeSaint
Apr 4, 2009, 2:38 AM
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SMJack,
If you feel comfortable and conversational I suggest the ideas mentioned by previous posters.
Another alternative is relaying the information to the gym managment/ staff. You are able to avoid the conversation, alert the powers to be, and walk away in good conscience (less the staff are idiots).
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apeman_e
Apr 4, 2009, 10:21 AM
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i find i can take slack and lower climbers much more smoothly in low friction mode. Still offers PLENTY of friction.
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shockabuku
Apr 4, 2009, 1:22 PM
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crazy_fingers84 wrote: I find this kind of interesting... but I have always referred to the different orientations of my ATC XP as "high friction" and "normal friction" mode. Everybody here seems to refer to it as "low friction". I don't think that it is "low friction". It is the exact same as the original ATC... the BD website lists the ATC XP as having "high" and "low" fricition, but it refers to the ATC sport as having "high" and "normal" friction orientations.
That's so 90's of you. I'm actually surprised BD didn't label it venti and grande friction.
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kylekienitz
Apr 4, 2009, 4:24 PM
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I never use my ATC xp in high friction mode. For me, the normal mode gives enough for lead and top rope belaying.
Although, I do remember accidentally repelling in high friction mode from the teacher's lounge on DT all the way down (double rope repel). That was a miserable first 20m.
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swoopee
Apr 5, 2009, 12:20 AM
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kylekienitz wrote: I never use my ATC xp in high friction mode. For me, the normal mode gives enough for lead and top rope belaying. Although, I do remember accidentally repelling in high friction mode from the teacher's lounge on DT all the way down (double rope repel). That was a miserable first 20m.
I did the same thing, different location of course. I actually had to pull rope up with my braking hand, slide my hand down, and pull rope for the first 5-6m. I agree it was miserable for at least 20m.
(This post was edited by swoopee on Apr 5, 2009, 12:21 AM)
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SendMasterJack
May 10, 2009, 5:57 PM
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im sorry all i didnt realize that the BD guide atc had two modes. i must sound like a retard.
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Factor2
May 10, 2009, 6:25 PM
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cracklover wrote: SendMasterJack wrote: im sorry all i didnt realize that the BD guide atc had two modes. i must sound like a retard. Nope. You just sound like a newbie. Nothing wrong with that. We're all still learning *something*. GO
not me
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rtwilli4
May 10, 2009, 8:17 PM
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SendMasterJack wrote: im sorry all i didnt realize that the BD guide atc had two modes. i must sound like a retard.
yea... sometimes things you see people doing may seem wrong but don't always jump to conclusions. If you think about it... using a Guide in low friction mode is the same as using a regular ATC. It's pretty obvious if you look at it.
Instead of wondering if you should tell someone they are doing it wrong... just ask why they are doing it that way and then you will learn... or maybe they are doing it wrong and they will say "hey thanks for checkin me bro."
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