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diamox
Sep 6, 2009, 1:29 AM
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So I went to this gym and it has the most irritating belay set up. (http://www.climbgroundzero.ca/)
Top-rope > GriGri > steel biner > runner > bolts > cement.
So, they go on and on about the correct technique to belay with the GriGri and take up the slack so the cement doesn't get 'shock' loaded.
It feels really odd to belay someone and not actually be connected via my harness.
Anyway, I'd love to hear people chime in about this set-up. I'm sure it's safe (or they wouldn't get insured) but, really, there are way better ways to do it.
And for god's sake let me us my ATC! End Rant.
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Hennessey
Sep 6, 2009, 2:04 AM
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(This post was edited by Hennessey on Sep 6, 2009, 2:05 AM)
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avalon420
Sep 6, 2009, 3:27 AM
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That is a direct belay ( DIRECTLY from the anchor to the belay device to the rope) most often used to bring up your second, as opposed to an indirect belay (belay loop BETWEEN anchor point, and belay device). Both would be perfectly acceptable, but for the worry of shock loading the anchors, ANCHORS should be bomb proof, especially at a gym
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acorneau
Sep 6, 2009, 3:49 AM
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diamox wrote: So I went to this gym and it has the most irritating belay set up...
Grigri's and floor anchors are very common to climbing gyms. Get used to it.
In reply to: And for god's sake let me us my ATC! End Rant.
For some gyms it is a requirement by their insurance for them to use a Grigri-style belay device, so don't fault them.
I'm still trying to convince my gym to have certain non-gumby sections of walls/ropes (mostly overhanging) to be "tie in and belay with your own belay device" stations, but they haven't gone for it yet.
Remember, gyms have a lot to put up with just to stay in business.
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j_ung
Sep 6, 2009, 11:23 AM
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acorneau wrote: Remember, gyms have a lot to put up with just to stay in business.
True, but I don't think fixed belay points on the floor is one of those. There are multitudes of gyms that don't have those anchors, which, to me, indicates that this one is all gym choice, rather than directed by an insurance policy.
I'm not one of those people who thinks climbing gyms are bad simply by nature of them being climbing gyms. But I do think there are some, the owners and managers of which find it more appealing to mandate (what I call) safety by gizmo, than to adequately and aggressively train staff. Safety by gizmo is an illusion. It simply trades one set of accident modes for another.
edited for cheesy tits.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Sep 6, 2009, 11:25 AM)
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nunatak
Sep 6, 2009, 2:47 PM
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We have a similar setup at our gym, but we have people clip the grigri to their harness so that they are the main anchor and the floor anchors are just a back up. This is better on the belay device, the climber, the anchors and the rope. It makes for a much more dynamic belay, which is better for the whole system, because the grigri is a lot less dynamic than plate devices (like the ATC).
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taydude
Sep 6, 2009, 4:06 PM
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HAHA I was just working the freshman orientation nights at my gym (college gym) and this kid informed me that he wasn't going to climb because our anchor system was unsafe. We use the stereotypical gri-gri anchored to the floor system. Then he proceeded to complain that he had to where the rental shoes on our walls because "climbing shoes don't help"
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rtwilli4
Sep 6, 2009, 6:48 PM
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I agree that it feels weird but it is the best way to make sure that n00bs don't drop each other or get slammed into the wall.
Well, it's not the best way... just the easiest for the lazy asses who work at the gym. Of course this teaches a n00b absolutely nothing so they go outside and hurt themselves. Gym is OK with that... they get to sit around and get paid while the real climbers have to deal with the n00bs at the crag.
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kriso9tails
Sep 7, 2009, 6:21 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: Of course this teaches a n00b absolutely nothing so they go outside and hurt themselves. Gym is OK with that... they get to sit around and get paid while the real climbers have to deal with the n00bs at the crag.
Maybe you've just worded that awkwardly, but are you suggesting that the gym is actually responsible if someone takes the minimal skill set learned there and tries to apply it to outdoor climbing?
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mosqueton
Sep 8, 2009, 3:55 AM
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kriso9tails wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: Of course this teaches a n00b absolutely nothing so they go outside and hurt themselves. Gym is OK with that... they get to sit around and get paid while the real climbers have to deal with the n00bs at the crag. Maybe you've just worded that awkwardly, but are you suggesting that the gym is actually responsible if someone takes the minimal skill set learned there and tries to apply it to outdoor climbing?
Absolutely not. I just think that gyms in general should take more responsiblity when it comes to teaching skills. Some gyms do a great job, some do not.
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rtwilli4
Sep 8, 2009, 4:18 AM
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kriso9tails wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: Of course this teaches a n00b absolutely nothing so they go outside and hurt themselves. Gym is OK with that... they get to sit around and get paid while the real climbers have to deal with the n00bs at the crag. Maybe you've just worded that awkwardly, but are you suggesting that the gym is actually responsible if someone takes the minimal skill set learned there and tries to apply it to outdoor climbing?
That post above was me... I just posted on my friends accound by accident.
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lena_chita
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Sep 8, 2009, 6:22 PM
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diamox wrote: So I went to this gym and it has the most irritating belay set up. (http://www.climbgroundzero.ca/) Top-rope > GriGri > steel biner > runner > bolts > cement..
yes, I've seen this sort of setup in some gyms, and I don't like it either, mainly because it has the belay device at a fixed height, which may not be comfortable height for me, and also because it doesn't allow the belayer to move around and keep the rope off the climber's back/out of the climber's way, which can be an issue in some toproping scenarios.
Still, I have occasionally belayed that way in my gym. We have no fixed stations like this, and most people use ATC in the gym, but there are ground anchors, so you can set up like this if you want.
The scenario where I would do it is something like this: the gym is almost empty, I am bouldering, another person is setting a new route on toprope. After setting it, he comes down and asks for someone to belay him so he could get a feel for how the route turned out. If I am only going to belay once, I might feel lazy about putting on a harness, and so I would belay directly from the anchor.
diamox wrote: Anyway, I'd love to hear people chime in about this set-up. I'm sure it's safe (or they wouldn't get insured) but, really, there are way better ways to do it. And for god's sake let me us my ATC! End Rant.
It is as safe as any other belay, and there are scenarios outside where I would use a direct belay instead of belaying from the harness, but it is not my favorite gym setup by any means.
But... it's a gym, and they do what they want.
If it is the place where you plan to climb regularly, you can get to know people, and talk nicely to those in charge about making a change-- or at least allowing you to belay your way.
If it is the place you are just visiting for a day-- suck it up and climb. Or walk out in a huff... it's all the same!
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diamox
Sep 10, 2009, 8:28 PM
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Thank you all for the input above.
So what about the Belay technique for the above mentioned set-up?
Folks at the gym want you to keep the runners tight all the time so as "to not shock load the cement." The belay method: keeping both hands above the grigri (one on each rope end) to feed in rope and to keep the runner tight.
Interesting concept. With such low fall factors and dynamic ropes I fail to see how this could occur. In any event, keeping the slack out of the system is a great idea. I was thinking about clipping into the webbing and then belaying with the GriGri off the steel biner. (ie, runners bolted to floor and two biners clipped in - one to the harness and the other steel screw gate biner to the grigri).
I'd love to hear opinions.
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acorneau
Sep 11, 2009, 1:24 AM
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diamox wrote: Thank you all for the input above. So what about the Belay technique for the above mentioned set-up? Folks at the gym want you to keep the runners tight all the time so as "to not shock load the cement."
This is pretty much nonsense.
Unless they used some shitty/sub-standard anchors in the concrete, then there should be absolutely no concern. The (hopefully) dynamic rope will dissipate all the energy that a top-rope fall could produce. Even commonly used "gym line" will be fine.
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dagibbs
Sep 16, 2009, 4:35 PM
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I've climbed at a bunch of different gyms -- there tends to be a wide variety of policies and setups for belaying. Ground-anchored Gri-gris are not an uncommon choice. My local gym uses them, and I've talked to the manager about it -- he says they're setup that way because that is their agreement with their insurance company. (i.e. it probably gets them far lower insurance rates by reducing the risk of failed belays in the gym). They also teach you how to belay with them for free, rather than charging you for belay lessons, or "belay check" as I've seen at many other gyms.
As to "shock-loading the concrete" -- either they've got really cheap concrete/anchors in the floor (which would be dumb, as that would be a negligence situation) or the person saying that was clueless. Keeping the rope fairly tight is generally just nicer on your climber, should they fall -- they'll fall less distance.
Also, the gym should be using dynamic rope -- so the "soft catch" that people keep talking about, in a top-rope situation (meaning a fair bit of rope will be out at all times, due to the top-of-wall down to belayer) and with the ability to keep the rope tight, it won't be an issue. Really, top-rope falls like this are all pretty "soft" just due to the rope-stretch in the system.
(Other common setups I've seen are auto-belay devices (big spring at top of wall), gri-gris peramanently attached to the rope, that you then clip in to your harness, and free-hanging ropes where you bring your own (or rent) a belay device and belay how you want to. I've also seen gyms where you tie-in to the climbers end, or where there is always a locking biner attached to the climber's end and you just clip in.)
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