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ajkclay
Nov 12, 2002, 2:32 AM
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Always grab the rope with the thumb side of your hand pointing down, so when you lift the rope the end attached to you will go into the gate from the front and come out the back. Just make sure that the rope goes from the belayer to the back of the gate and out towards you away from the rock.
This is kind of difficult to describe without getting long and confusing. I'll try to find a site with pictures that will make it easy to understand.
Be prepared, people will tell you to go and learn from someone, and not to ask this kind of question here. Don't take it personally, they can seem abrupt, but they are just thinking about your safety.
Stay tuned.
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timpanogos
Nov 12, 2002, 3:29 AM
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I was taught the following method: Always grab the rope palm up and thumb facing outward with your index finger pointing straight down the rope, with the rope dragging over the tip of your index finger and your smaller two fingers lightly holding the rope in place on your index finger. Now bring your arm up to the clip and do one of the following:
1. right hand, gate facing right bring the index finger right to gate, grab the binner spine with your thumb, and below the gate with your middle finger. You now have the biner in a C Grip between your thumb and middle finger, and the rope is being held against the gate with your index finger. Now quickly rock your index finger toward your thumb and then back out so as not to catch your index finger in the gate but enough to shove the rope into the biner.
2. right hand, gate facing left as your hand approaches the bottom of the biner, pinch the rope on your index finger with your thumb role your hand 180 degrees inward (palm is now facing down, thumb pointing to other side of body) hook your middle finger in the bottom of the biner and pull down on it to steady the QD. Rotate your hand 90 degrees outward, bringing your index finger, thumb and rope up against the gate and continuing to push the rope into the biner with your thumb (somewhat pulling the thumb down at the right time will keep your thumb from getting caught in the gate).
3. left hand, gate facing left same as item 1 above.
4. left hand, gate facing right same as item 2 above.
This method will allow you to quickly and effectively capture a totally free hanging QD, as well as avoid back-clipping. With a little practice it becomes automatic as you approach the biner just remember if the gate is out C clip it, if its in, middle finger grab it.
Hope this helps.
Chad
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-11-12 12:30 ]
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boulderingmadman
Nov 12, 2002, 4:35 PM
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its easier than that...
just make sure that the end you are tied to is always between you and the draw you are clipping. your belayer's end is between the draw and the rock.
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timpanogos
Nov 12, 2002, 4:53 PM
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What is way way harder than what I suggested here is to - clip the QD any old way, now break your rhythm and think in your mind rope to rock to biner to me oh crap, its wrong you want to talk pump, unclip and fix this. Now if the above system is used the flow is something like this:
1,1000 grab a draw, 2,1000 clip the bracket (ya know which way the gate is cause you placed in on purpose away from direction of travel right?!!), 3, 1000 grab the rope, 4, 1000 C or middle finger clip it, 5, 1000 starting next move you do not have to stop and analyze the rope/biner/belayer/you positions just go its right cause you always clip it the same way and will never be trying to unclip a QD very nasty stuff.
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darkside
Nov 12, 2002, 4:56 PM
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"Up from the rock, through and out to the climber"
Try to get a mental picture with a little phrase to remind you.
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geoteck
Nov 12, 2002, 5:23 PM
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I learned recently what timpanogos is talking about. It's a little hard to imagine in your mind without being shown, but it becomes automatic and works well (as far as I know - Like I said, I learned recently).
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stevematthys
Nov 12, 2002, 8:50 PM
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make sure the belayer's end of the rope is touching the rock, and your end is coming out to you, also make sure the draw is not twisted.
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estwing
Nov 12, 2002, 9:12 PM
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Try grabbing your tie in knot to assure that you are clipping the correct end of the rope. Also prevents the dreaded Z clip.
[ This Message was edited by: estwing on 2002-11-12 13:13 ]
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jt512
Nov 12, 2002, 9:53 PM
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Quote:Try grabbing your tie in knot to assure that you are clipping the correct end of the rope.
That isn't practical. When the going gets rough, you need to clip as efficiently as possible, so you'll usually want to grab the rope as far from your knot as you can in order to pull up the most rope with each handful. Rather than grabbing your knot to avoid grabbing the tail, instead tie your knot with a shorter tail. Leave enough to be safe, of course, but not so much that you'll grab it accidentally.
-Jay
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fitch
Nov 12, 2002, 10:00 PM
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Among the video clips on www.climbingmotion.com , there are videos of professionals clipping properly. They have helped me alot.
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timpanogos
Nov 13, 2002, 2:30 AM
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Like Jay said! Reach down as far as you can if you practice and get the rope balanced just right, draped across your index finger, hold the angle of your wrist just so, two smallest fingers adding just enough friction to keep the rope in your hand/finger put you can pull the rope right to the draw a single smooth motion no need to go for/to the mouth for a bite. Of course some clips just seem to force you to two arms full but if your belayer does not short rope you, typically you can smoothing bring the rope to the draw with one smooth movement.
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pbjosh
Nov 13, 2002, 6:49 AM
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To continue Jay's thoughts of grabbing far away and tieing an "out of the way knot."
I prefer the "sport eight" where the tail tucks back through the knot an extra time and exits towards the climber, not towards the belayer. Then tuck that back down through the tie in loops of your harness. Keeps it out of the way very nicely.
Also helps to tie your knot snuggly against your harness instead of at the end of an 18" loop (except in some squeeze chimney situations, where the knot away from the waist is an advantage)...
josh
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redpoint73
Nov 14, 2002, 10:57 PM
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Grabbing "far away" is fine. Just make sure you DON'T grab the rope below the previous draw, otherwise you will Z-clip. This is only a problem if the bolts are close together.
TO consistantly practice clipping properly (not back clipping), it really helps to understand why back clipping is wrong (rope will fall across the carabiner and possibly unclip itself). Pnemonic devices like "belayer to rock to carabiner to you" may help, but I've seen people trying to use this trick and clearly did not understand the basic concept. You should be able to look/analyze the clip and tell whether it is "right" or "wrong". It also helps to have a mentor watch and tell you if you backclip. After a while, it becomes second nature.
One more thing, if you do back clip, and notice it in time to fix it, DO NOT unclip the rope unless you have a really solid stance and feel confident. Its much better to put a second draw on the same hanger ( clipped properly), and then take off the first one. Or, if you have extra draws and are sketched, it may be easier to just leave the 2 draws on the same hanger, rahter than fuss with trying to take the first one off. If you "fix" the back clip this way, you are still clipped in at all times. I once saw a beginner take a 30 foot whipper and almost deck because he back clipped and tried to fix it by unclipping the rope. His belayer told him he was back clipped. He was really sketched, and fell with tons of slack out trying to reclip. He was lucky he didn't get hurt.
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timpanogos
Nov 15, 2002, 4:17 AM
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Dennis,
Very good point on the two QDs! I remember when I started leading sweating bullets trying to fix the darn things by unclipping/reclipping. Heck, if you are really pumped, hang dog on the backclipped QD while you add the second, take a break, clean the first and go for it.
Geessse, was I dumb.
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boulderingmadman
Nov 15, 2002, 4:37 PM
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im confused...how is it MORE confusing to make sure your end of the rope is between you and the draw??? here;
me--rope---'biner
how is that difficult? damn, i couldnt even read your entire post, so you may be saying something thats right. but if it takes THAT many words to explain it...have you ever heard of the acronym K.I.S.S.? keep it simple stupid...
disclaimer: im NOT calling you stupid. thats the acronym...
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timpanogos
Nov 16, 2002, 6:10 AM
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Madman,
KISS = "as you approach the biner just remember if the gate is out C clip it, if its in, middle finger grab it." Works for either hand - never a worry about back clip and you do not have to pull to the teeth first.
Now if you don't know how to C clip or middle finger grab, you can find a detailed description on the previous page.
Now please give me your even simpler KISS method of clipping for all 4 possibilities (in/out, left/right), on a free hanging QD which leaves the obviously needed result of rock to biner to climber (duh), and is faster and more efficient than this method and quickly becomes automatic with just a little bit of pratice.
I know that when I'm pumped or scared sh*tless the ONLY thing I'm thinking about is grabbing that swinging biner and clipping it as fast/smooth as I can.
If it happens to end up clipped right - wow, what a bonus.
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-11-15 22:44 ]
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redpoint73
Nov 16, 2002, 11:14 PM
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Timpanogos, thanks for your comments regarding my "fix" of a backclip.
Another quick fix - this time for a z-clip. This one I thought of "on the fly", when my friend z-clipped a few weeks ago (he just started leading this summer). This only works if you notice the z-clip when you are by the "lower" of the 2 bolts - just z-clipped and have not climbed up yet. Just unclip the draw from the rope, and reclip it to the "other" strand of the rope (the one going from the top bolt, to the belayer). Ta-da! No longer z-clipped.
If you are by the higher bolt, I guess the safest way to fix it would be to clip a second draw on the hanger. Clip the rope in correctly, right from your waist, then unclip the "z-clipped" strand. Your belayer should take slack quick when you unclip and drip the z-clipped portion of the rope.
If you have climbed PAST the higher bolt - you're screwed. You'll have to downclimb.
-Dennis
Captain of Safety
(or SketchMaster - whichever you prefer)
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boulderingmadman
Nov 17, 2002, 5:39 PM
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TIMPANAGOS--
if you always make sure your end of the rope is between you and the 'biner, you will never backclip...period.
now there may be other factors to consider. however these factors would be there whether you followed your log-form description of clipping or not. im not saying your way of clipping isnt easy for you or something that should/could be used with practice.
im just saying, the simplest way to prevent a backclip EVERYTIME is to ensure that your end of the rope is between you and the draw...simple.
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jt512
Nov 18, 2002, 11:49 PM
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I think the original question has gotten sidetracked. The question was not "what is backclipping." It was "how do I insure that I won't backclip." Presumably the original poster knew how to recognize a backclip, but didn't know how to be sure he wouldn't do it accidentally. The early responses, which discussed the hand position used to pick up the rope, answered this the best.
-Jay
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topher
Dec 1, 2002, 3:24 AM
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practice!!!!!!!! after a while its second nature. this thumb down stuff is good, but when your all pumped and looking at a bad fall its not good to have to think about is my thumb down or up or left or what ever eles. go find some low bolt or better yet on top rope, just tie in a practice lead line and go nuts, practice in lots of postions. after like 10 min of this you shouldnt have to even think about what your doing.
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caleb_danner
Nov 6, 2008, 8:20 PM
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http://www.spadout.com/w/quickdraw/
there is a good site
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jdefazio
Nov 6, 2008, 8:28 PM
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also this one
http://www.recycled6yearoldpost.com
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altelis
Nov 6, 2008, 8:32 PM
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[quote "ajkclay"]Always grab the rope with the thumb side of your hand pointing down, so when you lift the rope the end attached to you will go into the gate from the front and come out the back. Just make sure that the rope goes from the belayer to the back of the gate and out towards you away from the rock.
This is kind of difficult to describe without getting long and confusing. I'll try to find a site with pictures that will make it easy to understand.
Be prepared, people will tell you to go and learn from someone, and not to ask this kind of question here. Don't take it personally, they can seem abrupt, but they are just thinking about your safety.
Stay tuned.[/quote]
whats interesting is that i've always taught people how to clip OPPOSITE from that and its always worked well too. not saying my way is better, just that its different and it works.....
what i tell people is to reach down and grab the rope like you are shaking its hand (thumb up, if its your right hand palm facing left, left hand vica-versa)....the most important part to prevent backclipping is reminding the nob that HOWEVER THEY HAVE GRABBED THE ROPE if they don't twist their wrist you won't backclip..
right, the most common (in my experience) way a noob backclips is if they grab the rope then twist their wrist 180* before the clip the rope....
and z clipping? i honestly don't think i've EVER seen this be a problem outside! where are you climbing where the draws are close enough to z clip?!?!
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robdotcalm
Nov 6, 2008, 8:43 PM
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«and z clipping? i honestly don't think i've EVER seen this be a problem outside! where are you climbing where the draws are close enough to z clip?!?!»
Alas, I've done it on a trad route on gear I've placed.
rob.calm
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crackmeup
Nov 6, 2008, 9:04 PM
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altelis wrote: and z clipping? i honestly don't think i've EVER seen this be a problem outside! where are you climbing where the draws are close enough to z clip?!?!
When there is a ledge mid-route you may find two closely spaced bolts to keep you from hitting it. I've been on several routes like that, and z-clipped at least once (my belayer called me on it so I fixed it before I kept going).
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