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evanwish
Oct 19, 2008, 5:25 AM
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I'm wondering about how people choose how far they space bolts while drilling. Today I saw many routes where the first bolt was ~8 feet off the ground, while the second was ~25 feet off the ground with the 5.11+ crux between them.
meaning if you blow the crux you smash the ground with loads of slack to spare..
does this seem a little odd to you guys or should i just go back to plugging pro?
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porkchop_express
Oct 19, 2008, 6:05 AM
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I have seen a great deal of this too...unfortunately its not as uncommon as you would think .I have seen a few routes where the low first bolt was left in tact while the second, higher bolt was chopped...few things are as frustrating as that.
I think a shoddily bolted sport route is much scarier than trad; at least you have some say over where your protection goes.
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full1346
Oct 19, 2008, 9:31 PM
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yeah i have seen such things too, here in pa sometimes you have to get 15 feet of air beneath your heels before you can clip the first bolt
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evanwish
Oct 19, 2008, 10:41 PM
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well the 15 feet to the first bolt makes sense because you can use a crashpad.. but if you take a groundfall from 30+ feet up with a bad landing the crashpad's worthless..
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hafilax
Oct 19, 2008, 11:36 PM
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The first bolt should be at 3m and the following bolts spaced by exactly 2m. Non adherence will result in being summarily tarred and feathered after a severe tongue lashing. All bolts will be chopped and public access for the crag denied indefinitely.
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jakedatc
Oct 19, 2008, 11:54 PM
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Evan could there been some gear placements in between the bolts? Mixed routes are fairly popular in some areas.
Other than that the FA either bolts it on lead and the bolts go where they can get a stance or sufficient aid placement to drill or they rehearse the route multiple times and rap bolt it where the best clipping holds are and protect from a ground/ledge fall.
sounds like your route was either a mixed route and you needed some gear or it was a shitty bolt job
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evanwish
Oct 20, 2008, 3:21 AM
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jakedatc wrote: Evan could there been some gear placements in between the bolts?
on one of the routes there is a great 1" crack from the second bolt to the anchor, but between the first and the second is nothing. Its easy after you climb above the first bolt, but the crux comes before you can reach the second bolt.
a few other routes in the area have the same problem where the first bolt becomes completely useless because its so close to the ground. getting to the second bolt is basically a freesolo.
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jakedatc
Oct 20, 2008, 3:31 AM
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Then someone made a shitty bolt job
is there a stance before the crux so there could be a place to clip a bolt?
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MikeSaint
Oct 20, 2008, 3:43 AM
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Interesting question. Last time someone asked it spawned bolting threads three more came out of it.
So a possible reason could be that the route was done ground up, the run out is the result of a poor stance to drill? Whats the history/ ethic of the area?
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evanwish
Oct 20, 2008, 4:10 AM
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its really not a popular area (probably for a reason)
it's Indian Springs (NOT Indian Creek) its off Hw. 80 by northern Tahoe
this would be an acurate representation of the bolt spacing:
xx
x
x
ground
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bender
Oct 20, 2008, 4:21 AM
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ya, seen lots of terribly bolted routes
dont forget reason includes hold breaking and new crux's developing after the fact of its bolting. the biggest reason sport climbers have terrain to develop is simply because traditional climbing on loose and chossy cliffs was just to dangerous
when you author a route today you create a need for maintance most of the time. chief being keeping the route safe
no reason to get hurt anymore, particularly out at the gravel piles we are climbing on these days
fix your routes
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jeepnphreak
Nov 13, 2008, 6:07 PM
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evanwish wrote: I'm wondering about how people choose how far they space bolts while drilling. Today I saw many routes where the first bolt was ~8 feet off the ground, while the second was ~25 feet off the ground with the 5.11+ crux between them. meaning if you blow the crux you smash the ground with loads of slack to spare.. does this seem a little odd to you guys or should i just go back to plugging pro?
there was a route like that just bolted in my home town not too long ago. Close to the gound 1st bolt and a hella high 2nd bolt. After a couple of week I came back to find some one bolted up about 6-7 feet above the 1st and placed a nice new bolt. Made me feel better about pullling the curx and NOT decking.
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vegastradguy
Nov 13, 2008, 6:13 PM
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evanwish wrote: its really not a popular area (probably for a reason) it's Indian Springs (NOT Indian Creek) its off Hw. 80 by northern Tahoe this would be an acurate representation of the bolt spacing: xx x x ground
if that's accurate, then you're not talking about a sport route.
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j_ung
Nov 13, 2008, 6:50 PM
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That's exactly what I was going to say. That doesn't look like any sport route I've ever seen.
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evanwish
Nov 13, 2008, 8:05 PM
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ok so it's bolted, but it doesn't qualify as "sport" because of fact it's not as relatively safe as normaly bolted routes?
at the base i thoght i just wasn't seeing a bolt, but i led a route to the right, and rapped down and searched.. sure enough i didn't miss any bolts!
[the existing bolts were quite old too]
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/North_America/United_States/California/Lake_Tahoe/Indian_Springs/Upper_Tier/White_Streak_96605.html
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j_ung
Nov 13, 2008, 8:37 PM
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evanwish wrote: ok so it's bolted, but it doesn't qualify as "sport" because of fact it's not as relatively safe as normaly bolted routes? at the base i thoght i just wasn't seeing a bolt, but i led a route to the right, and rapped down and searched.. sure enough i didn't miss any bolts! [the existing bolts were quite old too] http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/North_America/United_States/California/Lake_Tahoe/Indian_Springs/Upper_Tier/White_Streak_96605.html
My guess (and that's all it is) is that it's meant to be a mixed line. I'm not saying it's a good mixed line. 
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evanwish
Nov 14, 2008, 12:29 AM
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the route to the right, "firestone" (http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ire_Stone_96607.html) has a very similar section to the one mentioned above but is is just 5.9
the .9 finishes up as a mixed route at the top with one or two .5" cams
but that doesn't explain the groundfall potential on first half of the .9
or the groundfall potential on the whole 5.11a route
i'm not complaining, just curious... (they made very fun top ropes)
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itakealot
Dec 22, 2008, 11:27 PM
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hafilax wrote: The first bolt should be at 3m and the following bolts spaced by exactly 2m. Non adherence will result in being summarily tarred and feathered after a severe tongue lashing. All bolts will be chopped and public access for the crag denied indefinitely.
Bolt spacing should follow the flow of the climb. If the first bolt is too high then stick clip it. Bolts should be at a good rest where a climber can get 3 points on. If the rock is solid and there is an easy section high enough off the ground, then run it out, like in Jtree. sometime the bolt spacing like no bolts anywhere near a crux is the challenge from the FA'er saying you got to be as hard as me to send this crux.
Setting uniform spacing is like they do it in the Rock Gym.
Don't slap the rude dude if you are shaky at the grade!
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salamanizer
Dec 23, 2008, 1:58 AM
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Those aren't sport routes, they were bolted on lead believe it or not.
The F.A. did the route without intent or care for making the route accessible to everyone. They just placed the bolts that are there to make the route "good enough" for them, at that particular time.
Whether it's a good route in your opinion, not safe or whatever is besides the point. Whether they tried to make the route a death route or not is besides the point as well.
Sometimes (more often than not) these routes develop because, "thats just how it went down".
Gives you something to aspire too in the future now doesn't it.
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Factor2
Dec 23, 2008, 3:25 AM
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If the route was bolted ground up on lead, then the bolts are just perfectly fine where they are. There should be no complaints in that department.
However, if it was rap bolted, then it should have been done better. When you rap bolt, do it right.
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zeke_sf
Dec 23, 2008, 4:15 AM
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evanwish wrote: its really not a popular area (probably for a reason) it's Indian Springs (NOT Indian Creek) its off Hw. 80 by northern Tahoe this would be an acurate representation of the bolt spacing: xx x x ground
Could be crappy bolting. Ive climbed a few routes at Indian Springs as a n00bie bolt clipper and the spacing didn't seem life-endangering on the routes I got on. The highest rated route I got on was a 10D though (forget the name). Was the crux right by the 2nd bolt or was it closer to the first and then you climb up on easier ground? That's fairly common.
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zeke_sf
Dec 23, 2008, 4:19 AM
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salamanizer wrote: Those aren't sport routes, they were bolted on lead believe it or not.
That makes sense. Yes, I would never term Indian Springs a sport crag.
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salamanizer
Dec 23, 2008, 5:46 AM
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zeke_sf wrote: I would never term Indian Springs a sport crag.
No, but a lot of (well protected) sport routes have gone in there over the last couple years. So I could see why someone new to the area might question "who the fukk bolted this thing".
Something for everyone! Woohoo!!!
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asellers98
Dec 23, 2008, 6:09 AM
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If the route was put up on lead, then there should be adequate placements for trad for the dangerous groundfall potentials unless the leader was a hardcore.
If there are not adequate trad placements, and this route was put up on lead, and not made safe, I would just leave it unclimbed unless you are a hardcore too. If there is enough call from your climbing community to make it safe by bolting it, then contact the FA, and or the bolting commitee.
There are so many routes to climb, why put your legs or more in danger climbing a dangerous route unless that is your thing.
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jcrew
Dec 23, 2008, 5:31 PM
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Factor2 wrote: If the route was bolted ground up on lead, then the bolts are just perfectly fine where they are. There should be no complaints in that department. However, if it was rap bolted, then it should have been done better. When you rap bolt, do it right.
completely agree! i've retro-bolted my own rap routes to make them better, can't be afraid to edit work.
but ground-up is climbing, taking what you get. it's almost a different sport these days, not fully understood by a lot of "urban-climber" types
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