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yodadave
Feb 19, 2009, 2:46 AM
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ok so i did a search and turned up very little. I found 3 bolted lines on an isolated cliff no where near any other sport climbing, closest other sport lines are 2 hrs away. The bolts appear to be Rawl 5 piece either 3/8 or 1/2. Hangers are mixed metolius, petzl and some smc that may or may not be the old too thin style (need to go back and check). at least half the bolt heads have rust on them. One appears to have threaded out, the sleeve is still seated in the rock. They appear to have some different compounds around the sleeves. Some look like caulk some more like epoxy/clay. I have no way of determining age and noone i talk to knows any history on the climb, like when they were bolted or by who.
So given all this information should i bother climbing on these bolts? I realize whatever i do will be a personal choice that i and only i will take responsibility for, I'm just trying to make it more informed.
Is any rust on the bolt head a sign not to use it?
Are there other resources for identifying and learning about bolts other than the ASCA?
Hope this is all clear, I'll try and answer any additional Q's people have.
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rockforlife
Feb 19, 2009, 3:17 AM
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yodadave wrote: Is any rust on the bolt head a sign not to use it? Are there other resources for identifying and learning about bolts other than the ASCA? Hope this is all clear, I'll try and answer any additional Q's people have.
Are they worth it?
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USnavy
Feb 19, 2009, 3:33 AM
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Here in Hawaii most of the retired hangers that we have replaced failed at over 35 kN despite their poor appearance and surface rust. However some failed with as little as 2 kN due to cracking / pitting but they were obvious to the eye that they were severely damaged.
We have had problems with Stress Corrosion Cracking and pitting in the past. One way we test for this is to hit the hanger and pry on the bolt with a large hammer or crowbar annually. In every case we have observed, hangers and bolts that have been degraded due to SCC or pitting failed when hit hard with a hammer or pried on. You may wish to give this test a try on your suspect bolts. If they break then you have your answer.
If you decide to replace them you can send them to me and I can pull test them if you would like.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 19, 2009, 3:35 AM)
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grem
Feb 19, 2009, 4:04 AM
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Why not replace 'em all on rap and then climb it?
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machino
Feb 19, 2009, 4:17 AM
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I say just climb the routes. Unless you are close to the ocean, I don't believe you will have the same corrosion factors as USNavy does. The bolts are going to be the problem, not the hangers. Worst case scenario, climb the routes and funk the old rawls out and put new ones.
My experience has been that rusty rawls usually look a lot worse than what they really are. Also, when I was asking all the old dudes around my area, the majority of them said that even the rawls that were not SS were good to about 20 years (I'm also in Montana). Good luck.
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suilenroc
Feb 19, 2009, 4:35 AM
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Really hard question to answer... I'd say go with your gut.
If your gut says "flail away", go get your gut checked... cause you're crazy.
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climbingam
Feb 19, 2009, 7:11 AM
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OK, I'm new so this is out of curiosity not flaming. Doesn't hitting and prying on the bolt weaken it's purchase? It sounds like it would. . .
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vegastradguy
Feb 19, 2009, 7:28 AM
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the compound around the sleeve is more concerning than the rust. if they were 'gluing' in a 5 piece (which, believe it or not, i have seen before), then who knows how strong the bolt is.
other folks are right- unless you're on the ocean, if the rust isnt obviously damaging the hangar and bolt, then you're probably alright.
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USnavy
Feb 19, 2009, 8:48 AM
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climbingam wrote: OK, I'm new so this is out of curiosity not flaming. Doesn't hitting and prying on the bolt weaken it's purchase? It sounds like it would. . .
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USnavy
Feb 19, 2009, 8:52 AM
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It’s possible the epoxy was placed to hold the hanger in place. I have seen people put epoxy on the back side of hangers and around bolts to help prevent spinners and loose bolts. In those cases the epoxy is not there to provide any tinsel strength but to keep the bolt in place and keep it from loosening up. I have never seen a reported case in which doing this compromises the integrity of the bolt (assuming the glue is not inserted in the hole since it’s not a glue in bolt). Some of the old hangers here in Hawaii have been glued in place and none of them have any corrosion related issues from the epoxy.
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acorneau
Feb 19, 2009, 5:27 PM
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Epoxy/calk is also used by some to keep water out of the bolt hole. This is to avoid the freeze/thaw cycles that could weaken the placements.
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dingus
Feb 19, 2009, 10:42 PM
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You called them sport routes. Are they really or are you just referring to a bolt protected face climb?
I ask for a reason.... here in NorCal one can expect to find rusty and old bolts in HUNDREDS of climbs. Most of them are NOT sport climbs.
Why is this point important?
Well... the folks who commit to rusty bolts on established trade routes generally either avoid FALLING at all or really really try to avoid falling on one of those rusty hangers or pins. If a certain bolt protects the crux often the climbers will know that particular bolt has held good falls in the recent past, but mostly ANY BOLT YOU ENCOUNTER is mostly mystery.
The expectation for a lot of these climbs is the bolt is there to prevent catastrophe.
Whereas, in sport climbing the bolt is also viewed as a tool to climb the route. Its typical in sport climbing to take multiple whips, esp on harder routes. It is an expectation to USE the bolts in this fashion - not only to prevent catastrophe, but as a tool to work the route.
If I were to find some unknown routes (WHEN, is more accurate, this happened to Angus and I a few months ago up at Castle Rocks near Shasta) have to evaluate and climb accordingly.
On that trip (this was Sept 08) I spied a line of 4 widely spaced rusty brown bolts protecting a slab maybe 100 feet tall. I had no idea if the bolts were sound.
I decided the climbing looked possible so I gave it a go.
At the first bolt I knew I was in for - rusty with a brown streak below the bolt.
Looking up I thought I could do the moves, and reverse them if need be (5.10-moderate slab route).
The Next bolt looked ok so I went for it.
That next bolt was worse than the first. Crus came a bit above this bolt then a long run on mod moves to an even crappier bolt.
And the last bolt was halfway out of its hole and bent over (I suspect avalance believe it or not).
Each time I evaluated and elected to climb on. But I climbed with the mentality they I MUST NOT FALL. I would have abandoned the route had I thought I might have taken a winger onto those last two bolts.
Its a judgement call and it worked out. My jdugement has failed me in the past, so I don't put much stock in my decision. I'm just illustrating that a bolted face climb might not be a sport route at all and the mental approach might be modified accordingly.
Cheers
DMT
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yodadave
Feb 20, 2009, 3:20 AM
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dingus, thanks for sharing your story, I appreciate the fresh perspective. I believe the routes I'm discussing to be true sport routes. 5 bolts in 40 ft the route i worked most is in the 5.12 - 5.13 range with moderate dynos. The cliff also overhangs between 8 and 10ft in the 40 ft height. The placements i talked about adding would be in the shallow pockets that make up the lower 20 feet of the climb. They would be marginal placements at best. I really don't think these bolts are catastrophe prevention i think they are the pro.
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dingus
Feb 20, 2009, 6:20 AM
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Ah so sorry I stuck my nose in bro. I was way off, way off. Carry on.
Cheers
DMT
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climbryn
Feb 20, 2009, 7:06 PM
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If the bolts are 5-piece rawl's why not just remove them and replace with new 5 piece rawls or even better redrill the whole bigger and replace with fixe 12mm triplex or 1/2" rawl(now called powers). If you know for sure that they are 5 piece rawls and you dont want to remove and replace them simply retighten then using a tourque wrench, if you can get the proper tourque with out the bolt spinning (locked up due to rust) then you should be good to go forsure. Those 5 piece bolts are so easy to remove you could pull them out, inspect them and replace them back into the hole no problem, theres good instructions somewhere on the net on how to do this (safe bolting org I think)
(This post was edited by climbryn on Feb 20, 2009, 7:07 PM)
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climbryn
Feb 27, 2009, 3:52 PM
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Here are some bolts that I replaced, a little rust on the outside can be alot of rust on the inside...these bolts pulled out very easily with a crowbar, I redrilled and replaced with 12mm triplex's
http://www.invertigo.ca/updates/funnypics.htm
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wsclimber
Jun 19, 2009, 9:15 PM
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hey Climbryn, how about taking a hack saw to those rusty bolts and posting a x-section pic showing how deep the rust has penetrated.
thxs in advance.
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