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currupt4130
Feb 28, 2009, 5:35 PM
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So this has been on my mind for a while and I figured I needed to get it answered. Say you're climbing a route with a vertical crack and you're placing cams in the crack and clipping direct. The biner gets oriented vertically, either spine up or gate up.
Which way do you place it? If it goes gate up is it a big deal? If it goes gate up you obviously don't want to clip it so the rope is running back across the gate. Same would go for spine up, but it's a bigger deal for gate up.
So what's proper placement and clipping for this situation?
(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Feb 28, 2009, 5:36 PM)
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rockandlice
Feb 28, 2009, 5:49 PM
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Well, there is another factor here that needs to be addressed as well. Often times cam placements need to be flipped so the wider outer lopes are on one side of the crack and the narrower inner lobes on the other, so getting the correct cam placement is first and foremost regardless of the direction your gate is facing. Once the cam is in properly, then you have to make a judement call on how to adjust the biner, or runner in many cases. I judge how things will be set up based on the direction I'm headed above each placement point and how a fall will likely occur. In general, gate up is most common and the rope is clipped so gate faces away from headed direction. I'm not the best at detailing out my thought processes for my personal judgement online, so hopefully someone a bit better at it can chime in.
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currupt4130
Feb 28, 2009, 7:29 PM
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I'm aware of placing so the lobes are positioned best and have been going with that since I started placing gear, which I'll admit has only been a few months. None the less, every weekend I've been out I've climbed at least a couple gear only routes. I really try and think ahead like you were saying, I just didn't know if there was some hard and fast rule though.
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angry
Feb 28, 2009, 7:45 PM
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I've got a question for you. Do you currently climb cracks often or are just getting ready to start doing it?
The reason I ask is that on paper (computer screen) this seems like a real concern. In reality, it rarely or barely comes up. Seriously, it's not a problem.
While it good to be aware of what a backclip is or a badly loaded biner is and how to fix it when you see it, it's something you'll be dealing with a lot less than you'd imagine.
Your bigger concern is when the gate orients toward the crack. On certain sizes (hands up to fist) it can be a real bear to clip. Especially if you aren't in a super stable position.
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currupt4130
Feb 28, 2009, 7:55 PM
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angry wrote: I've got a question for you. Do you currently climb cracks often or are just getting ready to start doing it? The reason I ask is that on paper (computer screen) this seems like a real concern. In reality, it rarely or barely comes up. Seriously, it's not a problem. While it good to be aware of what a backclip is or a badly loaded biner is and how to fix it when you see it, it's something you'll be dealing with a lot less than you'd imagine. Your bigger concern is when the gate orients toward the crack. On certain sizes (hands up to fist) it can be a real bear to clip. Especially if you aren't in a super stable position.
I climb cracks as often as possible. I've only been at it for a couple months though (cracks). I'm well aware of what backclipped and improperly loaded biners look like.
I've found out what you mean about the gate orienting toward the crack, it's a bitch and a half to clip if you don't have a great stance and that was one of the reasons I had this question. Clipping gate up is like clipping a sport draw.
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patto
Mar 1, 2009, 9:53 AM
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currupt4130 wrote: The biner gets oriented vertically, either spine up or gate up.
So if the biner is orientated vertically why is the spine or the gate up? Shouldn't the spine and the gate be parrellel and both vertical?
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josephgdawson
Mar 1, 2009, 10:54 AM
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This does not matter much. The only thing I would add is that in the larger cracks you want to make sure the biner is oriented such that if you fall corner of the crack cannot open the gate.
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 1, 2009, 2:47 PM
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You also want to make sure that the biner is entirely out of the crack and has no chance to be loaded in a way the would put leverage across the biner. Biners CAN break this way. I have heard at least two stories of this happening.
Josh
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hafilax
Mar 2, 2009, 1:36 AM
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If you really are concerned about the orientation of the biner then you can always flip it around on the cam sling. I had a partner that did that quite frequently in order to keep the gate away from the rock.
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jeepnphreak
Mar 2, 2009, 11:59 PM
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OK I have a couple of concerns with this question
1 youre clipping cams directly. I find its a good way for cams to walk on you as you climb above your pro..
2 as stated above it can be a bitch to clip if you are in a unsteady spot and need pro there
3. as also stated and I just want to reenforce if the biner is cliped directly and the cam is a bit deep in the crack, a fall may load the biner bat 90* to what it should a break.
a solution all these is a runner. It will allow the biner to get away from the cam and allow flexability in your system while you climb and less chance of the cam walking, or the biner binding up or back clipping.
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caliclimbergrl
Mar 3, 2009, 2:59 AM
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jeepnphreak wrote: OK I have a couple of concerns with this question 1 youre clipping cams directly. I find its a good way for cams to walk on you as you climb above your pro..
This *can* be true, but if you're climbing a true splitter, I nearly always clip directly to the cam and I've almost never had a problem. There are times where I can tell walking might be a possibility or that the cam might be loaded funny if I fell unless I add a draw, and then I'll add a quickdraw to it, but I rarely use extended slings when climbing splitters.
jeepnphreak wrote: 2 as stated above it can be a bitch to clip if you are in a unsteady spot and need pro there
I'm still trying to figure out what you guys mean by this. I've been leading trad (almost entirely cracks) for a few years now, but I don't really understand what you're talking about. And if it is difficult to clip the rope to the cam, isn't it just as difficult to clip a draw or runner to the cam that you would then clip the rope to? How does a draw/runner solve this problem?
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hafilax
Mar 3, 2009, 3:44 AM
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jeepnphreak wrote: OK I have a couple of concerns with this question 1 youre clipping cams directly. I find its a good way for cams to walk on you as you climb above your pro.. 2 as stated above it can be a bitch to clip if you are in a unsteady spot and need pro there 3. as also stated and I just want to reenforce if the biner is cliped directly and the cam is a bit deep in the crack, a fall may load the biner bat 90* to what it should a break. a solution all these is a runner. It will allow the biner to get away from the cam and allow flexability in your system while you climb and less chance of the cam walking, or the biner binding up or back clipping.
2. Rarely
3. Rarely
There a lots of good reasons to clip direct:
To prevent hitting a ledge.
One less step in a pumpy placement.
Saves draws on long pitches.
I'm sure there are more.
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petsfed
Mar 3, 2009, 3:47 AM
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jeepnphreak wrote: OK I have a couple of concerns with this question 1 youre clipping cams directly. I find its a good way for cams to walk on you as you climb above your pro.. 2 as stated above it can be a bitch to clip if you are in a unsteady spot and need pro there 3. as also stated and I just want to reenforce if the biner is cliped directly and the cam is a bit deep in the crack, a fall may load the biner bat 90* to what it should a break. a solution all these is a runner. It will allow the biner to get away from the cam and allow flexability in your system while you climb and less chance of the cam walking, or the biner binding up or back clipping.
You'll be easy to spot in Indian Creek.
You have to either place your cams deep enough that the carabiner will stay entirely in the crack (and this really only works when you're climbing a wide crack), or shallow enough that you won't load the crab across an edge. Beyond that, if its a completely straight route, you won't need a runner.
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brutusofwyde
Mar 5, 2009, 2:00 AM
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hafilax wrote: jeepnphreak wrote: a solution all these is a runner. It will allow the biner to get away from the cam and allow flexability in your system while you climb and less chance of the cam walking, or the biner binding up or back clipping. 1. A well placed cam won't walk 2. Rarely 3. Rarely There a lots of good reasons to clip direct: To prevent hitting a ledge. One less step in a pumpy placement. Saves draws on long pitches. I'm sure there are more.
Agreed that there are lots of good reasons to clip directly. There are also lots of good reasons to NOT clip directly.
As usual, it depends.
Indian Creek, imho, with its exceptionally clean, dead-vertical cracks, doesn't usually require runners. But even there, there are climbs where it can be a good idea to have a few.
Not only does it depend on the climb, and the climber, it also depends on the individual cam being placed, and the characteristics of the cam sling. (for example, I have cams with doubled, extendable slings, which extend the carabiner away from the piece while saving the extra weight that adding a draw would require)
A big concern when clipping directly to the piece, at least for me, is not the cam walking, but rather rotating as I climb past the piece. And this is as valid in Indian Creek as elsewhere. Something that can be countered by body position as you move past, but only if you are aware of it.
When the cam rotates, it is no longer oriented toward the direction of anticipated loading, and thus potentially much more prone to failure if loaded.
As to the OP, depends on the orientation of the cam as was previously stated.
If needed, don't discount the possibility of using a locker on a critical crux piece, After all, the second can hang from the rope if it is a brat to clean or unlock. Using a locker, however, has its own issues and potential drawbacks.
Brutus
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theclaw
Mar 5, 2009, 7:13 AM
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Since when did draws become the heavy and expensive half of trad? You probably have. Some slings would do you good.
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bkalaska
Mar 5, 2009, 7:32 AM
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You can always clip it and flip it (rotate the biner so the gate opens closer to the cam) if you are worried about back clipping in a fall.
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hafilax
Mar 5, 2009, 6:01 PM
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theclaw wrote: Since when did draws become the heavy and expensive half of trad? You probably have. Some slings would do you good.
I extend plenty of placements; just not all of them.
As they say: Perfection is achieved when nothing can be taken away.
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evanwish
Mar 5, 2009, 7:57 PM
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that really sucks when you place a cam deep in a crack and the biner drops into the crack and you can't reach it... i once just clipped the aid loop with a sling cause i couldn't get the sling/biner out at the time...
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