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mega
Sep 18, 2003, 4:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ..... or 1 station wagon, or a sedan with a box on the roof..... try taking a station wagon or a sedan to Moore's wall...and how many crash pads can you fit in a roof box?
I drive a Cherokee - I know that I could fit the same amount of stuff/people in a wagon. Norskagent, I was just debunking your argument, I'm staying out of the SUV bashing (although I will never buy one again).
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bumblie
Sep 18, 2003, 4:10 PM
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SUV drivers are so defensive. :x :x :x
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norskagent
Sep 18, 2003, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ..... or 1 station wagon, or a sedan with a box on the roof..... try taking a station wagon or a sedan to Moore's wall...and how many crash pads can you fit in a roof box? I drive a Cherokee - I know that I could fit the same amount of stuff/people in a wagon. Norskagent, I was just debunking your argument, I'm staying out of the SUV bashing (although I will never buy one again).
Rockclimbing by definition takes place at cliffs / boulders. Sometimes these places aren't close to paved or graded roads; hence a high clearance vehicle is necessary to access them. if you climb at an area near a paved road, great. where I climb, one is useful, a station wagon driver will have to walk the last mile or so uphill.
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bumblie
Sep 18, 2003, 4:33 PM
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Hey Norskagent,
How's the weather? Any power outages? Or just heavy wind and rain?
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mega
Sep 18, 2003, 4:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ..... or 1 station wagon, or a sedan with a box on the roof..... try taking a station wagon or a sedan to Moore's wall...and how many crash pads can you fit in a roof box? I drive a Cherokee - I know that I could fit the same amount of stuff/people in a wagon. Norskagent, I was just debunking your argument, I'm staying out of the SUV bashing (although I will never buy one again). Rockclimbing by definition takes place at cliffs / boulders. Sometimes these places aren't close to paved or graded roads; hence a high clearance vehicle is necessary to access them. if you climb at an area near a paved road, great. where I climb, one is useful, a station wagon driver will have to walk the last mile or so uphill.
Now your argument makes more sense - yes, where I climb (the Gunks) one is certainly not necessary and I used to live in VT, which is why I bought one, where there were plenty of nasty roads, especially during mud season. Your initial point about capacity, though, can easily be debunked.
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norskagent
Sep 18, 2003, 4:36 PM
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capacity without access = no access.
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mega
Sep 18, 2003, 5:32 PM
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Well, I'm putting this one to rest, Norskagent - this turned into car talk instead of climbing, and the real, unfortunate topic of climbing areas being closed because of others who abuse the land.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 18, 2003, 5:55 PM
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If people really cared for the environment, they wouldn't try to justify why they are allowed to buy SUVs. The people that are putting them down are talking about the majority of people who don't need them.
Fact: Fuel - efficient cars impact the environment a lot LESS than SUVs.
Fact: Humans, just by being alive, impact the environment.
If you care about the environment than you would think about every choice you made and how its impact will effect it.
I don't want to pick on just SUV owners. What about the people who throw their cigarettes out their car windows. I bet a few of them own hondas. In everything we do, we should be thinking about who or what it effects.
Josh
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vertical_risk
Sep 19, 2003, 11:36 AM
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Let's clarify something before you guys chew up Mega for driving something other then a electric car. I don't think I would include her Jeep cheroke in the present day defination of an SUV. Sure it's bigger then a car and has 4 wheel drive., but the SUV's we are debating, good or bad, are the Expeditions, Excursions, Hummers, Tahoes. exp. Most of these are the soccer mom type that have the money and will probably never see an off road trip.
But, I agree it's all how we affect the enviorment by the choices we make, be it the SUV we buy for status and so on.
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redpoint73
Sep 19, 2003, 12:09 PM
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Any response letters printed from that original TIME article? I know that a bunch of letter were sent in by climbers.
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mega
Sep 19, 2003, 12:44 PM
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I was trying to avoid the car talk issue again, but most roads are accessible by regular cars - Norg, are these roads you travel on to go climbing completely unmainted and overgrown, or simply hilly dirt roads? Even in my time in VT, I found four wheel drive a convenience, not a necessity, which is why I will never buy one again.
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norskagent
Sep 19, 2003, 12:52 PM
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to get to Moore's, you need adaquate clearance on your vehicle...most of the road is fine, but you can't just drive up as far as you can and then park; it's either park at the top or park at the bottem. Suburus, pickups, and suvs work well, you don't see many behemoth suvs up there.
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redpoint73
Sep 19, 2003, 2:43 PM
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In reply to: On the flip side People who Civics probably can't afford a Four Runner.
Wrongo. I know many Civic owners that have plenty enough money to buy an SUV. They choose to buy Civics because they are ridiculous reliable, fuel efficient, and are LEVs (low emission vehicles); and they don't feel the want/need to have a Four Runner.
Similarly, I ditched my Chevy Blazer a couple years ago in favor of a Subaru Forester. The sticker price is pretty similar nowadays, but the Subaru is much more fuel efficent, more reliable, and cheaper to insure.
Anyhow, I would say that MOST people who slag SUVs would not have too much against someone who actually uses the cargo space, clearance, and 4WD on a REGULAR basis, for work or play. SUVs are not much more gas guzzling than a big pickup truck, really -- and you don't hear too many people slagging pickup truck drivers. Some people need a large vehicle everyday for carrying materials or tools for work, or if you are really using the space every week for climbing purposes (like someone mentioned). Personally, I think thats OK.
My problem is with the usual urban soccer mom that argues that she need a HUGE SUV (like an Expedition or Subruban) to drive her 2 kids around, or pickup groceries. Those people are obviously trying to rationalize having a large luxury vehicle. Families got along just fine long before SUVs were invented.
I was listening to Car Talk on NPR one time. A lady was asking them whether her family should get an SUV or a sedan. Click and Clack asked her if she really needed the cargo space. She said that she did, for family vacations. They asked her how often her family took these vacations. She said once a year! Click and Clack told her to just buy a sedan, and rent something bigger when she needed the extra space for these vacations. She would save much more money in the long run in terms of gas and insurance. Why buy a big vehicle for the 0.1% of the time that you really need it?
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norskagent
Sep 19, 2003, 2:59 PM
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maybe more government regulation of behemoth-driving soccer moms is in order! who gets to decide who "needs" one and who "doesn't need" one? what criteria will they use..."you only have 2 soccer games per month, no excursion for you. you do qualify for a yugo, however"...
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redpoint73
Sep 19, 2003, 3:15 PM
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I would say that MOST people who have something negative to say about SUVs do NOT believe that some kind of government regulation is required to determine who can buy them or not. Most just vocalize this opinion in hopes that potential car buyers start thinking a bit more about the practicality, fuel economy, and emissions when buying a vehicle rather than just vanity (again, this doesn't apply to everyone). I used to own an SUV. I thought about it, decided I didn't need it, and got something smaller.
On the other hand, the government needs to be tougher on carmakers. Even if consumers want big vehicles, they can be made to be more fuel efficent and less polluting. This is fact. Almost every carmaker in the US testified to Congress recently that more stringent fuel economy requirements would threaten the safety of the vehicles by reducing vehicle weight. Honda was the only manufacturer that said differently. They testified that cars can be made more fuel efficient and still be safe and have the cargo room that people want. I'm with Honda on that one. I think the other manufacturers just don't want to cut into their own profits by having to redesign their cars.
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bumblie
Sep 19, 2003, 3:19 PM
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In reply to: to get to Moore's, you need adaquate clearance on your vehicle...most of the road is fine, but you can't just drive up as far as you can and then park; it's either park at the top or park at the bottem.
So what happened to that parking lot on that road to the left about 2/3rds of the way up? It's less than a quarter mile from the top parking area.
How often do you drive up to Stone or Boone w/ three or less people????
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norskagent
Sep 19, 2003, 3:20 PM
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automakers will eventually come around...I'm holding out for a honda-hybrid-element type vehicle. Right now I drive a suzuki aerio and go to Moore's the "secret" way.
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norskagent
Sep 19, 2003, 3:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: to get to Moore's, you need adaquate clearance on your vehicle...most of the road is fine, but you can't just drive up as far as you can and then park; it's either park at the top or park at the bottem. So what happened to that parking lot on that road to the left about 2/3rds of the way up? It's less than a quarter mile from the top parking area. How often do you drive up to Stone or Boone w/ three or less people????
if you are referring to the parking up the drive to the left, with the low bar gate at the end, you need high clearance / 4wd to get up the initial hill, my friend got a pinch flat going up it in his tacoma. I rarely go to Stone / Boone alone, usually I have 2-3 peeps.
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trenchdigger
Sep 19, 2003, 4:30 PM
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Ya gotta love how fast a thread can veer off topic...
Welcome to America, folks. You get to drive whatever car you like provided it meets some fairly reasonable standards - for now, at least.
And if you're so worried about efficiency and preserving the resource, look into buying a Diesel. It's a much more efficient sytem than a gasoline engine (30-40% greater fuel economy for similar sized engines/vehicles). When comparing similar sized diesel and gas engines, although the diesel will emit more NOx and particulates, it will release less Carbon Monoxide and far fewer unburned Hydrocarbons. In Europe they've added filters to some diesel exhaust systems that reduce particulates to levels below those produced by gas engines. Once low-sulfur diesel fuels are more readily available, the use of catalysts may be possible to cut the level of NOx emissions.
~Adam~
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elrojobdugs
Sep 19, 2003, 8:05 PM
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I'm with robmcc these generalizations are ridiculous... pico23 --> 99%, I highly doubt that... If someone is willing to pay more for an SUV, they aren't going to care that they're going to pay more for gas that goes along with it.
By the way... raindog leaverbiner prolly bought the GRAND cherokee because; like you said he's not taking it off-roading 24/7, so he bought it because it rides more like a car when he’s not off-roading.
I'm also with leaverbiner... I agree that a lot of people who own SUVs should be driving them, but don’t make a generalization out of that.
I own a 97' Mountaineer, and with the road trips I've been on, there’s no way I could have taken everything I needed with me, unless I would have rented an Uhaul. I've taken the thing to Jackson Hole, Glacier NP, the RED and numerous other places where I was willing to pay the gas prices. It has 150 k miles on it and it gets about 17-18 mpg but its def worth it.
Most of the people bashing SUVs are talking about the huge rides, and most of the people defending theirs are the normal 4x4s.
Even if someone was going to bash huge SUVs, I think that’s wrong. My cousins take road trips in their Suburban because they choose to. I know they could fly if they wanted to, but they want to be able to stop wherever they choose on the way they’ve 4 kids and with all the stuff they pack its only reasonable to have such a large SUV. The only other practical thing to do is to buy a huge conversion van, which is ridiculous.
RELIABLE redpoint73… id have to disagree there are many SUVs that are as or more reliable. If you’re going to be that worried about the environment try being a little more supportive of the economy and buy and American car.
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pico23
Sep 23, 2003, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sadly SUV's are purely for image. 99% of the SUV public doesn't ever use the 4x4 features, doesn't need the 4x4 features, doesn't need the ground clearance except to go over the curb in the malls to beat someone to a spot, doesn't need the cargo capacity. I don't think 4x4 and SUV are necessarily the same. Certainly my SUV was 2wd. Actually, I did need the cargo capacity. In reply to: In anycase I hope gas prices stay high. Heck I hope they go higher. As long as cheap gas is a possibility SUV sales will continue to grow. Newsflash. People buying cars costing $30,000, $40,000 and more aren't too put off by spending $2,000 a year on gas rather than $1,000. The hybrids are the same problem in reverse. Pay $6,000 extra to save a few thousand in gas. For most people the economics of it make it a non-starter.
news flash people buy cars at the upper end of there incomes. this means they don't have as much disposable income as you might imagine. I have a friend who sells BMW's new and he tells me how many people making $100K a year and driving $70K cars don't have a dime to there name. It's a sad fact but americans live on credit and gas does hurt all but the wealthiest.
Keep the prices, add some more taxes, make people pay through the ass for there SUV's.
And no, as you can tell from my previous I have absolutely no problem with the guy that needs a SUV or pickup truck. Some people really need them, my problem is those that don't but drive them.
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pico23
Sep 23, 2003, 2:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ..... or 1 station wagon, or a sedan with a box on the roof..... try taking a station wagon or a sedan to Moore's wall...and how many crash pads can you fit in a roof box? I drive a Cherokee - I know that I could fit the same amount of stuff/people in a wagon. Norskagent, I was just debunking your argument, I'm staying out of the SUV bashing (although I will never buy one again). Rockclimbing by definition takes place at cliffs / boulders. Sometimes these places aren't close to paved or graded roads; hence a high clearance vehicle is necessary to access them. if you climb at an area near a paved road, great. where I climb, one is useful, a station wagon driver will have to walk the last mile or so uphill.
GASP!!! You'd have to walk a whole mile and it's uphill. Thats god awful, it's almost like needing it for the one snowstorm a year.
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norskagent
Oct 9, 2003, 7:41 PM
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Rockclimbing by definition takes place at cliffs / boulders. Sometimes these places aren't close to paved or graded roads; hence a high clearance vehicle is necessary to access them. if you climb at an area near a paved road, great. where I climb, one is useful, a station wagon driver will have to walk the last mile or so uphill.
GASP!!! You'd have to walk a whole mile and it's uphill. Thats god awful, it's almost like needing it for the one snowstorm a year.
no it's not like that at all - I go up there probably 20 -30 times per year...I go there to climb not hike.
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capn_morgan
Oct 9, 2003, 8:38 PM
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So this is what im gathering form this post.....
1) no matter what you drive it contributes to pollutions, dependancy on foriegn oil etc, etc....
2) many of the climbers on this board with suvs actually know how to put them into 4wd and have taken them off paved roads.
3) most of the suvs mentioned are not that new and would defiantly not fall into the luxury suv class.
as for me..i drive a 97 subaru impreza, outback sport. 25mpg. not much better than a small truck...but a hell of alot more comfortable to ride in. What you drive is part personal preferance and partly determined by your financial standing. I do not have a problem with suvs in theory. It is when they are bought by people who do not even have a perceived need for them that it bothers me. As an engineering design student who takes classes about the social aspects of design. this is always a hotly contested topic. I could go on for a long time about this but i dont seem to be going anywhere.
maybe we should all just accept that what we drive polutes. and try and spend more time climbing than driveing :D
peace
jeremy
ps...growing up in vt..my parents had a minivan and a neon...in 20 years i can remeber one day when we did not go someplace because of the weather...and that neon has been some places that alot people would not take a truck..shhhh dont tell :P
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