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bearbreeder
May 1, 2012, 3:02 AM
Post #26 of 64
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condolences to the affected parties
a single sling in good condition,even girth hitched, should not fail with the loads on TR around a tree ... there isnt enough information to know what happened of course .. but a single sling should not fail unless cut, or if webbing was not tied properly
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on May 1, 2012, 3:04 AM)
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marc801
May 1, 2012, 4:23 AM
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notapplicable wrote: Simple, yes, but also redundant. Based on the reports so far, it seems very possible that the anchor was too simple.
Simple does not preclude redundancy.
Being redundant does not mean complex.
Not being redundant or not being simple enough to check and ensure redundancy (or the need for it, assuming sufficient experience and judgement) is at best a horrific mistake.
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scottek67
May 1, 2012, 6:42 AM
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"State police in Highland said that the Prezant's harness had come undone."
I read that in Majid's link...
http://www.recordonline.com/...20430/NEWS/120439990
I'm not sure if that is what indeed happened but condolences to everyone involved.
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viciado
May 1, 2012, 10:56 AM
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The news report is vague enough as to be useless (not surprising). I would think that a climber coming out of their harness would be dramatically obvious enough that the eye witness would have mentioned it.
I would read what the police reported to indicate she/her harness was not attached to the anchor system in some way, but even that is not consistent with the eye witness' information. It does not appear to have been a porr tie in, but the anchor itsef that failed, igven that the webbing used for the anchor was observed to not be in place. Curt has probably outlined the clearest modes of failure even though we will probably never be able to be any more certain than his group was in the end.
Condolences and a promise of patience with future TR anchor threads.
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tradmanclimbs
May 1, 2012, 11:04 AM
Post #31 of 64
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Girth hitched spectra can cut through itself or through nylon.
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 12:42 PM
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patto
May 1, 2012, 12:59 PM
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The use of large amounts of webbing for top rope anchors is a practice that seems peculiar to north america.
Everywhere else I go it seems far more common to use static rope. There are numerous advantages of rope over webbing and not too many disadvantages.
Sure you can safely set up anchors with webbing. And 999 times out of 1000 it is problem free. However this was one time where it wasn't the case. You can also screw up with static rope, but it is a fundamentally easier and safe item to use for TR.
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 1:06 PM
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I agree Patto. 100%. Older climbers used webbing and it's still being used today by untrained people. Actually, I've even seen trained people use it. It's very unsafe and hopefully people will understand that someday. Guides use static cord, no questions asked. None of my guides use webbing.
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cracklover
May 1, 2012, 1:50 PM
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patto wrote: <snip anti-webbing rant> Sure you can safely set up anchors with webbing. And 999 times out of 1000 it is problem free. However this was one time where it wasn't the case.
Pronouncements like this really piss me off. You have no idea what happened to cause this accident, but you have no problem standing up on this poor girl's dead body as if it were a soap box to preach your own radical sermon about the dangers of webbing.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on May 1, 2012, 1:51 PM)
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wonderwoman
May 1, 2012, 2:03 PM
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cracklover wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Just because I know where the climb is, I am willing to bet that it was not led and that they walked to the top to set up the toprope. But the witness in this thread would know better. I've never seen anyone lead that climb. I've led Easy Keyhole. Not particularly relevant - but it *is* totally leadable.
Oh, yeah. I know it's leadable. I only meant to point out that it is a popular top rope area with lots of folks walking around up top.
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 2:06 PM
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It is not an overstatement or my own "personal opinion" it is a professional statement that myself and many other guides work from. Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever. You obviously have never had any formal training from PCGI or the AMGA. You are a good example of an "un-trained climber" if you disagree with my post. I'd rather not argue under this thread like you said, link me to where you would like to chat :)
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njrox
May 1, 2012, 2:31 PM
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cracklover wrote: NEGuiding wrote: Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing. If you disagree then you need to seek out professional training. 1 - The above is a massive overstatement, and a statement of your own personal opinion, that I'm sure would not be supported by the AMGA. As such, it has no place in this thread. 2 - I'd be happy to argue the point in another thread. GO
I agree, it is a "massive overstatement" and should be clarified.
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climbamt
May 1, 2012, 2:34 PM
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I do not think this thread is the place to discuss webbing vs static, would love to see the debate in a separate thread.
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david_g48
May 1, 2012, 2:46 PM
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 2:56 PM
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saint_john
May 1, 2012, 3:08 PM
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CRKnutsen wrote: I was belaying on black fly at the time of the accident and saw the part of the fall. As i mentioned above, the accident happened on Easy Keyhole which is directly to the left of Black Fly. Her toprope anchor broke as she either fell or tried to take a break on her way up. It seemed unclear how it actually broke. I overheard someone say their anchor was webbing girth-hitched around a tree and someone from my group said they though they saw a rip in the webbing. It appeared to be atleast two pieces of webbing (two different colors) but could have been multiple slings. The rope and webbing came down with her. The anchor held up for someone to climb and be lowered just before she climbed. The rangers were there quickly and the ambulance was waiting at the road by the bridge by the time they got her there. One of the rangers found an unlocked lockerbiner near the tree they used for an anchor but didn't seem to know if it was part of their setup or not. Her group said she fell from about 15 feet. We thought she was a bit higher judging from the beta we overheard and where we first saw her falling but we couldn't see her climbing from where we were so we can't be sure. The article linked below was correct, she was not wearing a helmet. It's a terrible tragedy and i hope it reminds everyone to use redundant anchors and not grow complacent with their setups.
And to wear a helmet.
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lena_chita
Moderator
May 1, 2012, 3:55 PM
Post #47 of 64
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What a tragedy! My condolences to everyone involved.
I agree that the details may never get sorted out, but I hope there will be some more clarity about the mode of the anchor failure.
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mr.tastycakes
May 1, 2012, 4:03 PM
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Tragic. My condolences to the victim's family and friends.
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pylonhead
May 1, 2012, 4:10 PM
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Yeah, that's what I thought of too.
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cracklover
May 1, 2012, 4:26 PM
Post #50 of 64
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Thank you.
GO
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