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spikeddem
Nov 22, 2010, 7:16 PM
Post #51 of 61
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jt512 wrote: macblaze wrote: healyje wrote: From Alpinist's facebook page: In reply to: Christian Knoll Actually it is true, that he didn't use any auto-blocking device. He was using a tuber - the climber had allready clipped the top - when he sat into he just rushed through. The belayer was distracted by surrounding people and it seems that he had let go his hands of the rope. The climber landed on his feet, but unfortunately he fall backwards and hit the floor with his head, and no there were no padded floors. 15 hours ago · I wonder if this is a case of the climber clipping the top and just sitting back with out yelling take or any such communication. I've noticed this as a casual habit of many of the more experienced climbers at my gym (and at comps for that matter) and it always makes me cringe. The climber shouldn't have to call "take" at the top. If you have to tell to your belayer to catch you, there is something very wrong with your belayer. Jay
vs.
The following from April 26th 2010:
jt512 wrote: That's not why you grab the rope. You grab the rope and ease your weight onto it to make sure that your belayer has you on tension in the first place. Sure, if your belayer decides to suddenly drop you the second you let go, you're in trouble, but that's beside the point. Jay
This two quotes seem to contradict each other. What am I missing something, Jay?
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csproul
Nov 22, 2010, 7:46 PM
Post #52 of 61
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Do you honestly believe that he won't have an answer?
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jt512
Nov 22, 2010, 7:49 PM
Post #53 of 61
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socalclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: macblaze wrote: healyje wrote: From Alpinist's facebook page: In reply to: Christian Knoll Actually it is true, that he didn't use any auto-blocking device. He was using a tuber - the climber had allready clipped the top - when he sat into he just rushed through. The belayer was distracted by surrounding people and it seems that he had let go his hands of the rope. The climber landed on his feet, but unfortunately he fall backwards and hit the floor with his head, and no there were no padded floors. 15 hours ago · I wonder if this is a case of the climber clipping the top and just sitting back with out yelling take or any such communication. I've noticed this as a casual habit of many of the more experienced climbers at my gym (and at comps for that matter) and it always makes me cringe. The climber shouldn't have to call "take" at the top. If you have to tell to your belayer to catch you, there is something very wrong with your belayer. Jay While I agree with the spirit of this statement, I have to say I disagree with the practice. I don't care WHO is belaying me on a top rope. I'm making VERY sure they know what my intentions are to my belayer BEFORE I lean back on that rope. But that's just me. If the top of the route is out of sight of the belayer, you'd better be yelling commands or your just asking for trouble.
If the top of the route is out of sight of the belayer it might also be out of earshot. One of the longest falls I ever took was out of sight of the belayer, and between the wind and conversation on the ground, I intentionally didn't warn the belayer of the fall, for fear that anything I said could have been misunderstood.
It is completely ridiculous to have to inform your belayer that he is going to have to catch you. We don't say "take" when working a route because otherwise our belayers would drop us. We say "take" because we want our belayers to put us on tension, so that we don't have to reclimb moves unnecessarily. I would never climb with a belayer who I wasn't sure would catch me in response to my weighting the rope.
Jay
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j_ung
Nov 22, 2010, 7:51 PM
Post #54 of 61
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healyje wrote: gavroche wrote: I think the circumstances should be pretty severe for a belayer to be charged with criminal negilgence, but I would not want to say never. Short of a deliberate act of murder, I would want to say never. You leave the ground to climb in a non-commercial endeavor as a fully self-responsible adult then the assumption of risk is on you. Every step backwards from that self-responsible perspective will essentially 'weaken' individuals, climbing as a whole, and in the long term generate more accidents than it prevents.
I couldna said it better, so I won't even try.
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spikeddem
Nov 22, 2010, 7:57 PM
Post #55 of 61
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csproul wrote: Do you honestly believe that he won't have an answer?
Umm. Well, unlike some other posters on this site, I'm not out to find holes in Jay's posts to expose him for being AN EVIL HYPOCRITICAL MEANIE1!! I asked because I wanted to know.
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jt512
Nov 22, 2010, 8:11 PM
Post #56 of 61
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spikeddem wrote: jt512 wrote: macblaze wrote: healyje wrote: From Alpinist's facebook page: In reply to: Christian Knoll Actually it is true, that he didn't use any auto-blocking device. He was using a tuber - the climber had allready clipped the top - when he sat into he just rushed through. The belayer was distracted by surrounding people and it seems that he had let go his hands of the rope. The climber landed on his feet, but unfortunately he fall backwards and hit the floor with his head, and no there were no padded floors. 15 hours ago · I wonder if this is a case of the climber clipping the top and just sitting back with out yelling take or any such communication. I've noticed this as a casual habit of many of the more experienced climbers at my gym (and at comps for that matter) and it always makes me cringe. The climber shouldn't have to call "take" at the top. If you have to tell to your belayer to catch you, there is something very wrong with your belayer. Jay vs. The following from April 26th 2010: jt512 wrote: That's not why you grab the rope. You grab the rope and ease your weight onto it to make sure that your belayer has you on tension in the first place. Sure, if your belayer decides to suddenly drop you the second you let go, you're in trouble, but that's beside the point. Jay This two quotes seem to contradict each other. What am I missing something, Jay?
What you're missing is the grabbing the rope technique is used after having clipped direct into the anchors and having threaded the rope, during which time you were, in a sense, off belay. When you go back on belay, it is a good idea to grab the rope until you feel tension, to ensure that you really are back on belay. There's a big opportunity for miscommunication here: maybe you said "take" but your belayer heard "slack."
That's different than weighting the rope at the top of a climb on TR, which is essentially the same as taking a fall. If you can't tap the anchors and fall onto the rope with complete confidence that you'll be caught, then you shouldn't be climbing with that belayer, since there'd be no reason to be more confident that he'd catch you if you fell mid-route.
Jay
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spikeddem
Nov 22, 2010, 8:20 PM
Post #57 of 61
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jt512 wrote: spikeddem wrote: jt512 wrote: macblaze wrote: healyje wrote: From Alpinist's facebook page: In reply to: Christian Knoll Actually it is true, that he didn't use any auto-blocking device. He was using a tuber - the climber had allready clipped the top - when he sat into he just rushed through. The belayer was distracted by surrounding people and it seems that he had let go his hands of the rope. The climber landed on his feet, but unfortunately he fall backwards and hit the floor with his head, and no there were no padded floors. 15 hours ago · I wonder if this is a case of the climber clipping the top and just sitting back with out yelling take or any such communication. I've noticed this as a casual habit of many of the more experienced climbers at my gym (and at comps for that matter) and it always makes me cringe. The climber shouldn't have to call "take" at the top. If you have to tell to your belayer to catch you, there is something very wrong with your belayer. Jay vs. The following from April 26th 2010: jt512 wrote: That's not why you grab the rope. You grab the rope and ease your weight onto it to make sure that your belayer has you on tension in the first place. Sure, if your belayer decides to suddenly drop you the second you let go, you're in trouble, but that's beside the point. Jay This two quotes seem to contradict each other. What am I missing something, Jay? What you're missing is the grabbing the rope technique is used after having clipped direct into the anchors and having threaded the rope, during which time you were, in a sense, off belay. When you go back on belay, it is a good idea to grab the rope until you feel tension, to ensure that you really are back on belay. There's a big opportunity for miscommunication here: maybe you said "take" but your belayer heard "slack." That's different than weighting the rope at the top of a climb on TR, which is essentially the same as taking a fall. If you can't tap the anchors and fall onto the rope with complete confidence that you'll be caught, then you shouldn't be climbing with that belayer, since there'd be no reason to be more confident that he'd catch you if you fell mid-route. Jay
Well, the context of the thread you posted that in was gym climbing, so that seems to be where the confusion came in. Not to mention that I forget that not every crag in the rest of the states has fixed biners at the top like the main MN sport crag. Basically whether I'm sport climbing indoors or outdoors in MN, I just clip and lower, no need to setup a rap.
...That reminds me that I really need to take more trips :/
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notapplicable
Nov 22, 2010, 8:41 PM
Post #58 of 61
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j_ung wrote: healyje wrote: gavroche wrote: I think the circumstances should be pretty severe for a belayer to be charged with criminal negilgence, but I would not want to say never. Short of a deliberate act of murder, I would want to say never. You leave the ground to climb in a non-commercial endeavor as a fully self-responsible adult then the assumption of risk is on you. Every step backwards from that self-responsible perspective will essentially 'weaken' individuals, climbing as a whole, and in the long term generate more accidents than it prevents. I couldna said it better, so I won't even try.
Yep
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majid_sabet
Nov 23, 2010, 6:51 PM
Post #59 of 61
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Posts: 8390
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we can truly reduce a lot of climbing accidents if climbers just turn off the auto-pilot system, kill the assumptions and return to using the basic verbal and visual command system before letting go of their lives.
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acorneau
Nov 24, 2010, 2:49 AM
Post #60 of 61
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majid_sabet wrote: we can truly reduce a lot of climbing accidents if climbers just turn off the auto-pilot system, kill the assumptions and return to using the basic verbal and visual command system before letting go of their lives.
Wait... did Majid actually post something meaningful?!?
Quoted for truthfulness and posterity!
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majid_sabet
Nov 24, 2010, 5:33 AM
Post #61 of 61
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acorneau wrote: majid_sabet wrote: we can truly reduce a lot of climbing accidents if climbers just turn off the auto-pilot system, kill the assumptions and return to using the basic verbal and visual command system before letting go of their lives. Wait... did Majid actually post something meaningful?!? Quoted for truthfulness and posterity!
I can post one thing and give you one kind impression and post another to blow your mind so best thing is to try to know me.
not to forget that I am writing a book on climbing accident and read over 11 years of these sh*t.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Nov 24, 2010, 5:34 AM)
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