|
funk
Jul 5, 2013, 6:33 PM
Post #1 of 77
(40643 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 9, 2008
Posts: 120
|
8a.nu reports:
Tito Traversa - Rest in Peace
Tito Claudio Traversa died today after having fought very hard for three days at the Grenoble hospital, after a groundfall from some 17 meters in Orpierre. He was together with his gym's sport group, without his parents. A couple of days before, the 12 year old did his fourth 8b+.
"Our little big Tito is now an Angel and he gave his organs to let other kids live. Forever in his mum's and dad's heart".
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Jul 5, 2013, 8:01 PM
Post #2 of 77
(40180 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
from the comments ...
n a rough translation from the french website– it says that they had recently purchased new quickdraws, and that a young girl friend of the climber had improperly attached the carabiners to the dogbone, i.e. had attached the biner only to the plastic ‘anti-flip’ piece instead of the actual dogbone.
8 of the 12 draws that the climber was on before the fall were mounted that way….
http://climbingnarc.com/...sly-injured-in-fall/
from rock and ice ...
Italian climbing prodigy Tito Claudio Traversa has passed away after being hospitalized from a 50-foot groundfall. Grimper.com reports that Traversa was warming up on a 5.10d sport climb in Orpierre, France, during a climbing trip with his local gym team, which included 10 kids and three adults. Apparently, the quickdraws used to equip the route were slung incorrectly, which resulted in total failure and a groundfall. Details regarding the improper usage of the quickdraws are still vague, however, a rough translation of Grimper's report notes that the slings on the draws were attached to the carabiners incorrectly. The report indicates that the slings were improperly attached to the plastic/rubber device used to keep the carabiners from turning on the slings. Therefore these mechanisms were the only attachment between the sling and the carabiner and are apparently what failed as they are not intended to hold a fall. Although four correctly strung quickdraws were on the route, these quickdraws were unfortunately placed too low to save Traversa. Traversa was airlifted to Grenoble, France, after the accident where he was hospitalized. He died today, after fighting for his life for three days.
http://www.rockandice.com/...ies-in-climbing-fall
|
|
|
|
|
jumpingrock
Jul 6, 2013, 7:39 AM
Post #3 of 77
(39529 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 5692
|
Tragedy :-(
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Jul 6, 2013, 2:49 PM
Post #4 of 77
(39348 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
from
http://climbingnarc.com/...sly-injured-in-fall/
This report in French by Grimper seems to indicate that a number of quick draws he was using were improperly slung1 causing them to fail resulting in a fall from some 60 feet off the deck. He is now fighting for his life in a Grenoble hospital in a medically induced coma.
It goes without saying that we are hoping all the best for him and his family in this difficult time.
Update: According to this article in an Italian newspaper Tito has passed away. Sad, sad story.
Possibly as demonstrated in this video ↩
http://vimeo.com/4138205
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Jul 6, 2013, 6:52 PM
Post #5 of 77
(39232 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
its likely that they arent the problem with open slings
sport climbers rarely use open slings but rather dogbones ...
the articles do say that there were quickdraws and dogbones ...
it seems that alot of people on the intrawebs are jumping to the conclusion that its one of those "elastic band" problems on slings ... this is doubtful
the likely scenario is that someone clipped the biner only to the rubber part of the quickdraw dogbone
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Jul 7, 2013, 2:00 AM
Post #6 of 77
(39067 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
Such a tragedy! Rest in peace, Tito!
Having replaced the dogbones on my draws with PETZL dogbones, I have to say that those rubber pieces come loosely attached to the dogbone, but putting the carabiner in requires FIRST tearing off the little flimsy pieace of rubber that holds the gasket the the dogbone, and then some hard wriggling and wiggling, because the rubber gasket is meant to be tight. Even knowing it, the first one I tried to assemble I had to pause, look at the old draws, and confirm that this is how it was supposed to go, because it seemed like the biner just wasn't going to fit through.
I can see how someone inexperienced could possibly encounter this problem and think, no, it is not meant to go this way, b/c it just doesn't seem to fit, and then slide it in the "easy way", which is the wrong way.
This is specific to PETZL dogbones though, other companies have the rubber piece inside the dogbone, with no possibility of attaching it wrong.
This is what I mean: PETZL--the rubber is on the outside, the rubber gasket, when shipped, is LOSELY attached to the dogbone by really thin strip of rubber (first image). So it is possible to slip the biner through the rubber part only, when first assembling the draw, even though you can clearly see how it is meant to be, if you have an old draw in front of you:
Black diamond-- the rubber is on the inside of the dogbone, you can't just put the biner through only rubber by accident:
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
redlude97
Jul 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
Post #8 of 77
(38740 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990
|
I saw that once at a crag also...sometimes i wonder about people. Dunno how else petzl can include the piece that would be more idiotproof
|
|
|
|
|
skelldify
Jul 8, 2013, 2:45 PM
Post #10 of 77
(38228 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 20, 2013
Posts: 91
|
Alright, I'll be the first to say it:
This is a case of tragedy happening because someone isn't knowledgeable enough to inspect the gear they're using.
It's great to see kids pushing grades, but they just aren't old enough to understand how safety systems work. Thus, they are left trusting their safety system to someone else.
Unfortunately, kids also aren't very capable of determining if someone else is trustworthy.
|
|
|
|
|
TradEddie
Jul 8, 2013, 11:33 PM
Post #11 of 77
(37913 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2007
Posts: 164
|
What a tragedy for all involved. My deepest sympathies to the family.
While there are obviously inexperience issues, I feel compelled to say that those pictures look like an accident just waiting to happen. I'm surprised that anyone at Petzl could ever have thought that way of attaching the keeper was a good idea.
TE
|
|
|
|
|
Syd
Jul 8, 2013, 11:47 PM
Post #12 of 77
(37903 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300
|
skelldify wrote: This is a case of tragedy happening because someone isn't knowledgeable enough to inspect the gear they're using.
I think it comes down to the parent's responsibility. Were the parents climbers ?
There's a climbing gym near here that I feel is a place with an accident waiting to happen, yet dozens of kids climb there in school groups. Parents seem to assume that others will be responsible for their children. Until my son is 18, he is my responsibility. His life is in my hands.
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Jul 9, 2013, 12:50 PM
Post #13 of 77
(37624 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
Syd wrote: skelldify wrote: This is a case of tragedy happening because someone isn't knowledgeable enough to inspect the gear they're using. I think it comes down to the parent's responsibility. Were the parents climbers ? There's a climbing gym near here that I feel is a place with an accident waiting to happen, yet dozens of kids climb there in school groups. Parents seem to assume that others will be responsible for their children. Until my son is 18, he is my responsibility. His life is in my hands.
Seriously? The names i want to call you are not appropriate for this thread, so I'll refrain. Did you even read the report? Tito was out climbing with the gym climbing team,parents were not present.
Please don't tell me that in 18 years you are NEVER going to send your kid to school, or to camp, or to a birthday party, or to a sports event, or let him go on a school trip!
You are by his side 24-7, no sleeping? You hired an investigator to do a thorough background check on every pre-school teacher and camp counselor?
WTF, really?
Yes, someone screwed up big-time, and a talented young climber who was in their charge is tragically dead as a result. But to blame the parents in this case is ridiculous, unless you are suggesting that the parents are to blame for every accident that happens in every sport that their kids are involved in, because they signed up the kids for that activity.
Why don't we ban kid participation in rock climbing until they are 18yo? And while we are at it, throw in swimming (they can drown!!!), gymnastics, soccer (you can be stabbed to death by a referee! you can be decapitated! your knee scrape can turn septic and kill you, too) and every other sport.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Jul 9, 2013, 4:26 PM
Post #14 of 77
(37507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
http://www.grimper.com/...UdwIIvT_Sw0.facebook
google translate ...
Despite the ongoing investigation to determine responsibilities, but for the sake of information, the prosecutor handling the case kindly let filter these pictures as a warning for such a tragedy can not happen again. Here is the installation of slings-unimaginable-made by a group of teenagers, which led to the fall of Tito. In order to comply with the investigation, the installation of the draws was conducted by way of example with components that are not implicated in the case. For the death of Tito Traversa not be in vain, we can only remind everyone to be vigilant, the belief in a material more reliable never to take precedence over systematic verification of it and its good use.
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 9, 2013, 4:26 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
rocknice2
Jul 9, 2013, 4:40 PM
Post #15 of 77
(37492 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1221
|
They even have the bent gate on the wrong side.
|
|
|
|
|
redlude97
Jul 9, 2013, 5:45 PM
Post #16 of 77
(37429 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990
|
sounds like that is a recreation and not the actual draws although the translation is a little rough.
|
|
|
|
|
acorneau
Jul 9, 2013, 6:10 PM
Post #17 of 77
(37402 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 2889
|
"After a lot of speculation over the weekend, according to Grimper the police have released an image of a quickdraw slung like those that were responsible for the tragic death of Tito Traversa last week. As you can see, the only thing holding the top biner to the dog bone is the rubber band which is not meant to hold a climber’s weight. According to reports, 8 of Tito’s 12 quick draws were slung like this and they happened to be the last 8 he used which is what led to his fatal ground fall."
http://climbingnarc.com/...-traversas-accident/
|
|
|
|
|
skelldify
Jul 9, 2013, 6:25 PM
Post #18 of 77
(37390 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 20, 2013
Posts: 91
|
The parents are responsible for selecting a capable climbing coach or instructor. They are also responsible for allowing their child to go on this trip. In this way, they are responsible indirectly. They chose an incompetent instructor to be responsible for their child in a safety-intensive sport. They also allowed their child to go on a trip with too few instructors.
YES, all parents should be directly involved with their child's climbing at all times! Climbing should be learned as a one-on-one activity until the learner is competent on their own!!!
Also, the sports you mention do not require a child to understand a complicated device or safety system. How about ATV racing or hunting? These are safety-oriented activities that children participate in. The difference is that they are typically done one-on-one with a parent, or adviser trusted by a parent.
It is only with the advent of climbing "teams" that children are thrown into a large group to participate in a dangerous activity in the charge of someone who may not be capable.
(This post was edited by skelldify on Jul 9, 2013, 6:28 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
ghisino
Jul 9, 2013, 8:33 PM
Post #19 of 77
(37318 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2005
Posts: 249
|
skelldify wrote: a trip with too few instructors..
I disagree.
I am italian but work as a professional climbing instructor in france, where the common ratio is up to 12 children for 1 instructor.
(12=4 teams of 3. One climber, one belayer, one "backup belayer". We esteem ourselves capable of supervising efficiently 4 teams)
of course to run things safely with such numbers you need a very good sense of organization, the ability to obtain the respect of the rules you lay down, good knowledge of the place, and a very alert mind.
the only downside is that safety might go at the expense of children's spontaneity, as you somehow need to turn them into "belay soldiers"...I had a parent complaining once about this.
the training to get the full certificate consists of about 800 hours over at least one year, including both theoretical information and supervised practice.
by the way, one of the most crucial professional rules we are taught is to NEVER make a professional use of an equipement that is not your own and you haven't personally inspected and approved.
unfortunately italy does not have anything similar...as an improvised or badly trained instructor, even one kid might be one kid too many...
(This post was edited by ghisino on Jul 9, 2013, 8:40 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Jul 9, 2013, 8:42 PM
Post #20 of 77
(37308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
skelldify wrote: The parents are responsible for selecting a capable climbing coach or instructor. They are also responsible for allowing their child to go on this trip. In this way, they are responsible indirectly. They chose an incompetent instructor to be responsible for their child in a safety-intensive sport. They also allowed their child to go on a trip with too few instructors. YES, all parents should be directly involved with their child's climbing at all times! Climbing should be learned as a one-on-one activity until the learner is competent on their own!!! Also, the sports you mention do not require a child to understand a complicated device or safety system. How about ATV racing or hunting? These are safety-oriented activities that children participate in. The difference is that they are typically done one-on-one with a parent, or adviser trusted by a parent. It is only with the advent of climbing "teams" that children are thrown into a large group to participate in a dangerous activity in the charge of someone who may not be capable.
How about go-cart racing? Kids do it all the time. Going to an overnight camp with a lake nearby?
There is only so much a parent can do, to ascertain that the person they are entrusting their child to is actually trustworthy. Sure, you have an option of never letting your kids participate in anything, but I don't think you would have wanted to be that child, and neither should you be that kind of parent.
Gym climbing is a much more mainstream activity in Europe, and so are climbing teams. And kids are not dying right and left (thank god!). But accidents happen. Sometimes people fall victims to their own mistakes, and sometimes the mistake of one person results in a death of another. Also, perfectly trustworthy, perfectly competent, perfectly sane and responsible adults can sometimes slip, make mistakes, or get distracted. Kids drown in bathtubs two feet away from their watchful parents, as well as in lakes, rivers, and pools. Kids choke to death in front of watchful grandparents. Kids fall off the stairs, off the playgrounds, etc. etc. Life just isn't 100% safe.
In this case, the victim of the accident was a young and high-profile climber, but I do believe this this could have happened to a competent adult climber, too (not putting the draws together wrong, but climbing on a draw that was put together in a wrong way, without realizing it.)
Have you watched the video I linked upthread? Look at the final result of the draw put together and tell me with 100% certainty that you and every generally-responsible adult climber you know couldn't have possibly clipped a draw like that, ever. The rubber gasket covers the sling part completely in the fully-assembles state, you cannot actually see the sling and tell that it is not assembled correctly.
Here are some scenarios that happen every day at sport crags everywhere:
--you walk in, there are draws hanging on the wall, they appear to be someone's marked draws, not project draws, and a group of climbers nearby, but nobody on the route with draws. You ask the group of climbers if it is their draws and whether it is O.K. to climb on them. They say sure, and you climb... Sure, you check the draws visually as you clip them. Maybe run your finger on the rope-side draw to make sure it is not sharp. But if it is a hard-for-you route, how thorough is your inspection?
-- you get to the crag, there is a rope hanging on one route, climbers nearby, nobody climbing that route. You ask if they would be o.k. if you pulled the rope. They tell you that they were hoping to toprope the route later, so could you please climb on their rope and put it back up for them? You say yes. The rope looks new, they are climbing on it, you trust that they haven't dipped it in battery acid.
--you are about to climb a route, when someone walks in and asks if you are cleaning the draws after you climb. You say yes. They ask if it would be possible to give you their draws to put on bolts 5 and 6, as you clean the route. You say, sure, why don't you give me two of your draws for the anchors, too, it will make the cleaning faster.
Regardless of whether you personally ever do anything like that, it is a common behavior. And people are trusting that the perfect strangers have not screwed up.
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Jul 9, 2013, 10:41 PM
Post #21 of 77
(37240 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
skelldify wrote: YES, all parents should be directly involved with their child's climbing at all times! Climbing should be learned as a one-on-one activity until the learner is competent on their own!!!
Please tell me why this is not attributable to swimming?
The bottom line to me is that is you feel like this, you should be speaking up every time someone posts here and mentions their kid being on a climbing team. If you don't do this in general, then it is cruel and hypocritical to say that the parents are responsible for this death.
The person who put the draws together wrong is responsible. The person who is in charge of the climbing team equipment, who allowed an incompetent person to put the draws together, and didn't double-check, is responsible.
The parents are right now probably blaming themselves as they grieve. But no, they are not responsible for their child's death in this case. They had a very reasonable expectation of basic climbing gear being in proper working order on a gym-organized trip.
|
|
|
|
|
joeforte
Jul 9, 2013, 11:38 PM
Post #22 of 77
(37219 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2005
Posts: 1093
|
This is truly sad. My deepest condolences to the family. This is a huge loss to the climbing community, and a big eye opener.
Mistakes can happen to any of us. I know I've made mine, and I'm lucky to have survived them. I think we can all say the same.
I'd rather not point the blame at anyone in a situation like this, but I can't help but ask myself some questions when I read about it, wondering how it could have been avoided.
Yes, draw failure caused him to deck, but from what I understand, he died days later due to his head injury. This makes me ask... was he wearing a helmet? Would a helmet have saved him? Who knows. Of all of the pictures of him online, I cannot find any pictures of him wearing one. This is not his fault, or his parents. It is OUR fault. We set the standards. Look in all of our magazines. Helmets are used in nearly all other "extreme", "adventure", or fast-paced sports where there is a risk of a traumatic brain injury. Why aren't they more common in ours?
I see a lot of pictures of kids leading and I ask myself... why aren't they wearing a helmet? Is it uncool? Too heavy? Do their mentors wear one? Maybe the climbing community needs to set a better example.
|
|
|
|
|
ensonik
Jul 10, 2013, 1:24 AM
Post #23 of 77
(37168 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 15, 2009
Posts: 134
|
Syd wrote: Until my son is 18, he is my responsibility. His life is in my hands.
As lena mentioned earlier in the thread, that's silly. This sounds like the innocence of a young parent with a very young child. Cute but not realistic.
|
|
|
|
|
jomagam
Jul 10, 2013, 1:36 AM
Post #24 of 77
(37164 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 364
|
lena_chita wrote: Seriously? The names i want to call you are not appropriate for this thread, so I'll refrain. Did you even read the report? Tito was out climbing with the gym climbing team,parents were not present. Please don't tell me that in 18 years you are NEVER going to send your kid to school, or to camp, or to a birthday party, or to a sports event, or let him go on a school trip! You are by his side 24-7, no sleeping? You hired an investigator to do a thorough background check on every pre-school teacher and camp counselor? WTF, really? Yes, someone screwed up big-time, and a talented young climber who was in their charge is tragically dead as a result. But to blame the parents in this case is ridiculous, unless you are suggesting that the parents are to blame for every accident that happens in every sport that their kids are involved in, because they signed up the kids for that activity. Why don't we ban kid participation in rock climbing until they are 18yo? And while we are at it, throw in swimming (they can drown!!!), gymnastics, soccer (you can be stabbed to death by a referee! you can be decapitated! your knee scrape can turn septic and kill you, too) and every other sport.
+1. How about riding a bicycle ? Professionals have died going less than 20 mph.
This was a horrible and shitty accident, but I've seen adults mess up so many times that you can't automatically blame this on him being a kid. I admit that I've never thoroughly inspected others' draws when I first climbed on them. I've seen pictures of many incorrectly put together draws since the accident and some of them are really not easy to spot.
|
|
|
|
|
jomagam
Jul 10, 2013, 1:44 AM
Post #25 of 77
(37156 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 364
|
My guess is that he wasn't wearing a helmet in most pics because he was doing 45 degree overhanging routes. It really makes no sense in that scenario, especially if the first couple of draws are pre-clipped, like I see it in most videos.
I'm guessing that future designers of dog bones will try to make assembling the quick draw incorrectly harder.
|
|
|
|
|
|
DeathDraw.jpg
1
