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noremac
Nov 12, 2008, 1:19 AM
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Despite the poor economy, I am currently looking into forming plans for a gym in the future. To help with this I am looking for input from anyone and everyone about things that they particularly enjoy about indoor gyms and what they dislike. It can be anything from lighting, ventilation, heating/cooling, floor plan, routes, lack of types of climbing, etc... Any and all feedback would be appreciated....
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Valarc
Nov 12, 2008, 1:36 AM
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Dislikes: The people who own gyms. Seriously, almost every gym in the Atlanta area seems to be run or owned by a giant prick. Operate your gym like a business, don't act like a douchebag climber, don't spread drama, don't fuck over customers on purchases, don't portray yourself as some hardass.
No one gives a shit how hard you climb when you run a gym, they just want a quality climbing experience. I know climbing is your hobby, even your passion, but treat the damn thing professionally, like a business, and not like a frat house.
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Senate156
Nov 12, 2008, 1:43 AM
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well this has been done before, but i'll bite...since I am a gym rat.
Likes:
-Constant (at least every two-three weeks) changing of routes...Maybe leave the hardest up for a little while longer.
-Ventilation/heating/cooling is VERY important...I left one gym because it was a sauna 24/7, my climbing partner even passed out because of the humidity/heat.
-Cleanliness: not just bathrooms, but all around. I don't want to climb on nasty chalky/greasy holds.
I personally would love a gym that's 90% 5.10+ lead/TR, all 40-50ft high routes. Several different walls like that of course, including lots of overhangs, features, and a roof. The other 10% can be devoted to bouldering...mainly for 4x4's, not for crazy hard problems. But then again I and climbers like me would not be the primary source of your income.
...oh and if members were able to have more imput on routes, I've even developed a system where members can designate their own routes temporarily.
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hopperhopper
Nov 12, 2008, 2:04 AM
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Cycle through changing routes in sections. Every 2 weeks or so, strip an area and re-set it. That way you get fresh routes all the time, but once a route is up, it will be there for a while (for people to work on it)...until it's time to strip that specific area again.
I've never been in a gym that's too cold, if that says anything.
Good areas for people to put their bags...maybe day lockers or something. Somewhere either secure, or out in the open where any theft would be easily seen.
Make it very welcoming to newcomers. I know personally I hate going somewhere new (not just climbing...any kind of location) because I hate dealing with not knowing how things work. Things like: where to park, where the main entrance is, how much stuff costs, not sure how to check-in, etc. Make everything very easy to follow (big signs, arrows). Make a huge, easy to read sign that answers all the basic questions newcomers would have (things like prices, requirements, and other FAQs).
Have a water fountain nearby, but also vending machines for some extra rev.
Rent and retail gear both, and in all aspects remember that a big chunk of income will be from rental groups like birthday parties, cub scouts, youth groups, etc, so accommodate them.
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Justin678
Nov 12, 2008, 2:20 AM
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One thing that is cool that the local gym down here does is that have a speaker system threw out the gym and they play good music on it. Also air conditioning is a plus. Most of the climber here, climb in the gym simply to get away from the heat/cold.
One thing I hate about some gyms is the fact they use rocks/pebbles as there "padding" in the bouldering area.
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gblauer
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Nov 12, 2008, 2:34 AM
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I like a gym that:
1) Re-sets routes on a frequent basis
2) Takes input on routes from climbers
3) Segregates the birthday parties from the rest of the climbers
4) Is clean (bathrooms, public areas and the holds of course!)
5) Sets some great routes for lead laps/fitness
6) Has more lead options than TR options
7) Has a great boudering area with a place to sit between problems
8) Swaps out the ropes frequently
9) Holds member appreciation events (free classes, outings, parties, instruction)
10) Has lots of hardcore climbers
I dislike:
1) Unfriendly gyms
2) The same old routes, day in and day out
3) Poor route setting, same style routes
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currupt4130
Nov 12, 2008, 2:34 AM
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My few experiences in a gym were at a certain gym in the beach area of VA. Not naming any names... Anyway, I learned what I didn't like and a few things that I did. The gym was suffocatingly hot in the summer, so AC is a must, not just fans, for when it is hot out. Also, their routes never changed the whole three months I was in the area, and every time I was there I found a bunch of loose holds.
The pea gravel on the floor is comfortable, but very very annoying as it gets on everything (the dust that is).
They were anal about tying to the floor while I was belaying my brother who is 50 pounds lighter than me. They also wouldnt let me teach him how to lead doing mock lead while on TR unless we were both certified which didn't make any sense at all. I know they have rules, but there needs to be some kind of common sense applied as well.
The bouldring was alright, but their boulders were painted with regular paint rather than a textured paint which made intermediate smears impossible.
They had what they called a "Crack House" which was a cool feature. It was a small little room with a flake on one wall that ran in an S shape and the two other walls had different sized cracks built into them.
That was something I liked, that they didn't have just typical holds and boulders, but tried to be a little different using the whole crack thing.
Also I liked that they had some kind of music always playing. Not too loud, but just enough background noise to block out the other people in the gym if you know what I mean.
They had a decent selection of gear for the location, so I would definitely say have some sort of gear shop with various belay devices, harnesses, and a decent assortment of shoes. Also offer other climbing gear like draws and maybe a rope or two depending on your location in the country. If you're in a good location for climbing you can always offer more types of gear, but I'd say stick to what people are going to need to climb there, give them a little selection, and a few extra things for them to fondle.
(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Nov 12, 2008, 2:36 AM)
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krosbakken
Nov 12, 2008, 2:40 AM
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Likes/Needs
- a ton a lead routes
- good route setting and change it up every once in a while
- Nicros wall with naturals
- Staff that are cool and know whats up
- clean holds
- good music
Dislikes / cons
- shaved tires for flooring, ( get just a solid rubber floor )
- staff that don't do shit or are know it alls
- bad ropes ( change them )
There is more but I just put some up. Ill change if I think of more.
Hope that helps.
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nkane
Nov 12, 2008, 2:57 AM
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Lots of good stuff here. Here are some things that haven't been said, or that I disagreed with:
I think new routes should go up every week. The Circuit in PDX does this - they've divided the gym into 30 sections, and every week they strip 3 and reset them. Thus each section stays up for 10 weeks, but there are new routes each week.
I also liked their bi-annual member appreciation parties and general awesomeness.
I like gyms that treat their monthly and yearly members well. They're the people who give a gym its atmosphere.
At the MPHC in NY, one thing I like is that they don't grade the boulder problems for a few days after they set them. This not only gives the community a chance to come to a consensus grade, but it's fun to hop on a problem and not be prejudiced cause you think it'll be too hard or easy for you. They also have mystery routes where the grade is on the back of a card you can flip over when you're done. That's a fun idea.
I like gyms that set quality moderate routes - a 5.8 or a v1 should have fun motion to it. Throw in an undercling or a heel hook.
Finally, I think the nicros walls with naturals are kinda lame. They get all greasy and are hard to clean, and i'ts annoying to have to avoid a natural foothold that isn't on, when it's the perfect place to smear or flag.
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Valarc
Nov 12, 2008, 2:57 AM
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krosbakken wrote: Likes/Needs - good route setting - Nicros wall with naturals
These two don't go well together. It's really tough to set true quality footwork if there are a zillion natural feet everywhere. The best quality routesetting you'll get is from a wall with very little natural texture, so you can assign specific feet to force interesting and creative movements. A nicros wall means there will always be a foot right where you want it, and there is much less need for skillful footwork.
As a climber and a routesetter, I prefer plain plywood walls over all the textured shit. If it must be concrete, I prefer it to be pretty smooth, so you can force folks to use the feet you want, and not any old foot.
Another issue, as a routesetter, is to avoid too many sharp aretes and stemming corners/chimneys. One or two stemming corners are nice to have, as there are certain routes which require that type of terrain, but if you've got too many of them, it will vastly limit what you can do with your routes. Long expanses of gently varying terrain will allow you to vary your routes as much as possible without always following the natural lines of your over-engineered, over-complicated wall terrain.
Certainly have a few of those crazy sharp angled features, but don't fill the whole gym with them. A couple of nice, flat, wide, tall sections of wall at 15, 30, 45, and 60 degrees will do a lot more for quality routes than another five aretes and three short roofs with a 90degree lip to pull over.
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iron106
Nov 12, 2008, 3:21 AM
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CHEAP PRICES!
Good routes
Good hours
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gogounou
Nov 12, 2008, 3:40 AM
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There have been a number of good suggestions here, but one that immediately comes to mind: have a up-to-date board at the desk/toward the front with the location and grade of the new routes that have been set. It's such a small thing, but after moving, and going from a gym that did it to one that doesn't, I realize the simple convenience.
J
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kmsmoguls
Nov 12, 2008, 6:54 PM
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The most important thing is to have good interesting routes that are changes on a consistant schedule.
I was visiting family in CT and while I was there I went to the local gym. There was no AC and it was about 95 degrees out, which really sucked. The gym features were simple in design but cool to climb on but the route were aweful. I can usually climb mid to hard 11s and I wan't able to finish a 10a. The head route setter was there and his comment was, "If you can't climb my routes you shouldn't be climbing." I set at a gym in Boston and I found his comment unbelievable. I will never go back to that gym! Bottom line good routes make the gym so be sure to have good route setters. Everthing else people have said in previous posts are also true.
EPH
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rsd212
Nov 12, 2008, 7:15 PM
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Been said before, but getting good routesetters is key. My local gym gives free memberships to good routesetters, and forces them to continually update the ropes and boulder problems.
Other points:
Good
- Comprehensive adult classes (encourages community)
- Keeping the brats away from serious climbers (while still capturing the birthday party money)
- Slackline!
Bad
- Lights that blind the belayer
- Greasy holds/missing tape...make sure people know how to brush holds and tell them where the spare tape is
- Having to hunt for routes...have a board listing all the routes and what part of the wall they start on
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k.l.k
Nov 12, 2008, 7:20 PM
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Valarc wrote: krosbakken wrote: Likes/Needs - good route setting - Nicros wall with naturals These two don't go well together. It's really tough to set true quality footwork if there are a zillion natural feet everywhere. The best quality routesetting you'll get is from a wall with very little natural texture, so you can assign specific feet to force interesting and creative movements. A nicros wall means there will always be a foot right where you want it, and there is much less need for skillful footwork. As a climber and a routesetter, I prefer plain plywood walls over all the textured shit. If it must be concrete, I prefer it to be pretty smooth, so you can force folks to use the feet you want, and not any old foot.
Ok, I understand the artiste aspect, but I'm off the boat on this one. First, Nicros isn't yr only alternative for featured surfaces. Second, if as course-setter it irritates you that folks slobber r. foot out onto the smear, instead of using the proper orange chip, just define yr route by requiring tracking. Then if they stray, you can police them by shouting out embarassing comments over the PA.
Several advantages to (good) featured surfaces. First, you can put more routes and variations in a smaller space. Each line automatically has three variations: All features/feet on; tracking of set holds; and set holds for hands w. only features for feet.
Second, especially important for the n00bs, featured surfaces facilitate the transition to the Great Outdoors.
Third, featured surfaces help to compensate for poor or infrequent route-setting. I'm sure that Valarc conscientiously sets routes so that everyone from 4'4" to 6'4" can use the required holds, but you may not always be able to find/retain setters w. that level of engagement or ability.
I've seen a number of gyms in Europe that really use that approach to advantage, and it helps with efficiency-- two climbers of disparate ability can use the same rope/line, and at peak times, there's less rope-dancing required.
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captromalley
Nov 12, 2008, 7:36 PM
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I have a lot of experience with featured walls and although not made by Nicros, I think it is a bad idea to do a gym this way. If anything I would find it better to do maybe one small section, maybe three climbs, in this fashion and have those three of different levels and climbable from top to bottom only using the wall itself. I enjoy the natural feel of these types of walls but find that setting routes really is difficult. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter who steps on what but for those people that want to climb a set route the way it was intended it gets far to confusing. Also, in my experience be prepared to break a lot of holds or be extremely limited to the holds you can use and where.
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k.l.k
Nov 12, 2008, 8:00 PM
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One of the things I've learned climbing at different places in Europe, is that gym culture, like climbing culture, is highly particular. Learning to triple-down on featured walls is not that intellectually difficult, but it may well be beyond the capacity of North Americans.
Most of the best gyms I've seen mix featured and non-featured walls.
in Central Europe, Tivoli (where folksl ike Lama and Eiter train) seems to be the new gold standard:
http://www.kletterzentrum-tivoli.at/?getPage=div/virtueller%20Rundgang.html&menu=18
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climb4free
Nov 12, 2008, 9:03 PM
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Things I like:
~ warmth in the winter (MN)
~ convenient location
~ friendly people AND people that motivate others
~ routes/problems with unique movement
~ as safe as corporately possible, to limit the fear of injury and allow one to push their limits
Things I dislike:
~ opposite of those listed above
~ annoying beta-know-it-alls and gym rats (defined: ONLY climbs inside) that are a bit smug because they have that red route wired and they take away all your fun of figuring it out
~ cussing
~ techno music
... and last but certainly not least ...
~ hippies
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hafilax
Nov 12, 2008, 10:45 PM
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Make it as tall as possible. I would love to see a 30m lead wall.
Exercise machines for warming up. After walking to the gym in the winter with freezing cold fingers the last thing I want to do to warm up is hop on a climb. Spinning the legs on a bike for 10 minutes inside would be great.
Core and antagonist muscle exercise equipment.
Good campus board with appropriate spacing and leg room.
Enough ropes so that you aren't waiting in line but small enough to be profitable.
Good ventilation with aggressive chalk clean up.
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hyongx
Nov 12, 2008, 10:51 PM
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Valarc wrote: Dislikes: The people who own gyms. Seriously, almost every gym in the Atlanta area seems to be run or owned by a giant prick. Operate your gym like a business, don't act like a douchebag climber, don't spread drama, don't fuck over customers on purchases, don't portray yourself as some hardass. No one gives a shit how hard you climb when you run a gym, they just want a quality climbing experience. I know climbing is your hobby, even your passion, but treat the damn thing professionally, like a business, and not like a frat house.
Are you talking about anyone other than sierzant?
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hyongx
Nov 12, 2008, 10:56 PM
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k.l.k wrote: One of the things I've learned climbing at different places in Europe, is that gym culture, like climbing culture, is highly particular. Learning to triple-down on featured walls is not that intellectually difficult, but it may well be beyond the capacity of North Americans. Most of the best gyms I've seen mix featured and non-featured walls. in Central Europe, Tivoli (where folksl ike Lama and Eiter train) seems to be the new gold standard: http://www.kletterzentrum-tivoli.at/?getPage=div/virtueller%20Rundgang.html&menu=18[/quote]
checked out those pictures. That place looks too sterile, like nobody really lives there. A gym's got to have some community to it. You just have to climb there, you don't have to eat off the floor.
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k.l.k
Nov 12, 2008, 11:05 PM
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edit-- that was weird-- it wouldn't preview or post.
(This post was edited by k.l.k on Nov 12, 2008, 11:09 PM)
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k.l.k
Nov 12, 2008, 11:12 PM
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hyongx wrote: checked out those pictures. That place looks too sterile, like nobody really lives there. A gym's got to have some community to it. You just have to climb there, you don't have to eat off the floor.
You should see the German gyms! The Austrians are actually really relaxed.
I like the cleanliness-- retching in the dirt may be core, but I don't want to risk MRSA just to get a workout.
You might like this place better-- the Brits are much less fastidious:
http://www.castle-climbing.co.uk/the-tour.html
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cracklover
Nov 12, 2008, 11:18 PM
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Only one thing that's really important to me:
Many competent to brilliant routesetters. Give them whatever deals you need to give them.
You can have the best couple of routesetters, but everyone, I don't care how talented they are, every routesetter has a style. And I hate being in a gym where every route feels kind of the same.
Only way to avoid that is by having a lot of setters. Like 1/3 as many setters as you have roped stations.
This keeps the routes changing over quickly, too, without putting too much burden on any one or two people.
That's my $0.02
GO
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krosbakken
Nov 12, 2008, 11:37 PM
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ya ya I see where you are coming from. I just really like the really rock feel to the gym, what the gym I go to does is set routes that have the nats on or off. If their off then the foot work is up to the route setter kinda like you are saying. But I see where your coming from and ya smearing really doesn't happen as much as a gym with all ply wood.
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