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tenpins
Mar 3, 2010, 4:02 PM
Post #26 of 48
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I couldnt disagree more.
there has been a shift it seems to me in the past 15 years to being overly dramatic - for lack of a better word. WITH PROPER supervision, instruction and care, a climbing gym is about as asafe as it gets. This is accident, it seems to me, was wholly preventable.
One of my circles is currently being instructed by "a climber" who speaks in dire tones about toprope anchor failure, being able to hold 22 kN toprope falls, the necessity of being tied into an anchor to belay a toprope climber OR ELSE....
this does nothing to develop competent, grounded, level headed climbers. Ive instructed alot of people how to climb and belay over the oast 18 years. They are all still climbing and to my knowledge have had zero accidents. We would talk about the dangers of a situation, how to mitigate them, and when to walk away.
Telling folks in a climbing gym that Death is Imminent! is absurd. If this girl had died, the uproar from climbers would have been thunderous. None of us would expect in a million years for someone to die in a climbing gym!
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shoo
Mar 3, 2010, 5:27 PM
Post #27 of 48
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tenpins wrote: None of us would expect in a million years for someone to die in a climbing gym!
You should check your facts. I know of at least one death in a climbing gym.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...eath_At_Gym_749.html
I also know of a few in-gym accidents which could easily have been fatal were it not for a fair amount of luck in the way the people landed.
As far as I know, the people in all of the above cases were climbing without direct supervision and checking by a staff member, and without the reasonable (in my view) expectation that they were being checked and supervised by a staff member at every step.
What is "reasonable" is largely dependent upon the clarity of the gym's approach concerning competency of climbers in the gym, the level of supervision, and the inherent risk associated with any activity where safety is largely dependent upon learned skills and the user's ability to assess and accept risk.
In almost all cases where the expectation of the client is that they will receive direct supervision but does not receive such supervision, the gym has either failed to inform the client of his/her responsibilities, or the gym has failed to properly supervise the client. In either case, the gym is at least partially responsible, if not mostly or entirely so.
In other words, in the case of an accident occurring while the party is expecting that the staff is supposed to be directly preventing that form of accident, the gym bears the brunt of the responsibility.
In the obvious case of direct failure of gear provided by the gym, the gym is responsible. Failure of gear due to misuse (as in, not really gear failure) or in the case of gear failure brought in by the client, the above paragraph applies.
On the other hand, in either the case that it clear to the client that he/she is not being directly monitored at all times, or in the case that monitoring would not likely have prevented injury, the climber is the responsible party.
Disclaimer: I am currently employed part-time at a gym. The opinions above are mine only, and may or may not also be those of the gym at which I am employed
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tenpins
Mar 3, 2010, 5:55 PM
Post #28 of 48
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wow, "check your facts", huh?
I didnt present anything as fact. I proposed that a climbing gym death is highly unexpected by our climbing community.
your reply and tagline reveal alot about your "i work in a gym, so I know everything" attitude, and we've enevr met. Heres a clue, in alot of climbing circles, the dudes that work in a gym are considered gumby hack noobs!
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shoo
Mar 3, 2010, 6:04 PM
Post #29 of 48
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tenpins wrote: wow, "check your facts", huh? I didnt present anything as fact. I proposed that a climbing gym death is highly unexpected by our climbing community. your reply and tagline reveal alot about your "i work in a gym, so I know everything" attitude, and we've enevr met. Heres a clue, in alot of climbing circles, the dudes that work in a gym are considered gumby hack noobs!
I am very, very well aware of the fact that gym employees are often pretty worthless. Thanks.
The disclaimer, clearly labeled as such, was there so that people understand that my opinion may be professionally biased. I also work in the health economics field, where declaring financial conflicts of interest are absolutely vital.
And thanks for the comment about my tagline! I was really pretty proud of that one. Apparently, some people don't appreciate it when you try to help them understand that there is a difference between a belay device "braking" and one "breaking," but to each his own.
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j_ung
Mar 3, 2010, 6:15 PM
Post #30 of 48
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tenpins wrote: I couldnt disagree more. there has been a shift it seems to me in the past 15 years to being overly dramatic - for lack of a better word. WITH PROPER supervision, instruction and care, a climbing gym is about as asafe as it gets.
Which is still only deceptively safe, not wholly safe.
In reply to: This is accident, it seems to me, was wholly preventable.
I've gone out of my way multiple times in this thread to say that I don't know the details of this accident, that the gym may very well have been at fault, and that my statements herein are directed toward the quote in the article, and nothing else. How many more times will you be needing me to clarify that? 
In reply to: Telling folks in a climbing gym that Death is Imminent! is absurd.
I agree. But I also think it's absurd to tell them that gym climbing is safe by definition.
In reply to: None of us would expect in a million years for someone to die in a climbing gym!
Really? Deaths have already occurred on portable walls, and numerous serious injuries have occurred in gyms. Frankly, I expect it's just a matter of time before somebody dies in a gym accident.
Edit: Shoo, thanks for the link. I stand corrected.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Mar 3, 2010, 6:19 PM)
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altelis
Mar 3, 2010, 6:45 PM
Post #31 of 48
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"ClimbClimb wrote: Having personally seen someone take a free fall from the top of a wall at my climbing gym (she was either not tied in or perhaps just had her belay device threaded through) -- a sight I'd rather not see again -- I believe it's far more frequent than it seems. That's also why gyms insist on "backups" to the figure-8's, it's not so much about the knot slipping, as it is about ensuring things get put together right.
So, your argument (if i got this right is):
"I personally saw something happen one time therefore it is a common occurance."
And I don't know for sure, but my understanding from talking to gym people (owners, employees, etc) that if you change the E to an I you have the real reason gyms insist on backup knots.
Its about Insurance stipulations that may or may not make real safety sense rather than the gym trying to Ensure anything...
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dingus
Mar 3, 2010, 7:01 PM
Post #32 of 48
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j_ung wrote: I've gone out of my way multiple times in this thread to say that I don't know the details of this accident, that the gym may very well have been at fault, and that my statements herein are directed toward the quote in the article, and nothing else. How many more times will you be needing me to clarify that?
42.
The girl was 13, and a beginner. It said so right there in the majid quote. You took exception to
In reply to: "No beginner should expect to be injured during a recreational experience on an artificial wall."
So a 13-year old beginner SHOULD EXPECT TO BE INJURED during a recreational experience on an artificial wall?
What about a 12 year old? 10? 8?
What about some fat slob at a gym because of some idiotic company team-building exercise who is coerced into climbing... should she expect to become injured during the experience?
I concur with the quoted statement - no BEGINNER should EXPECT to become injured during a recreational experience on an artificial wall.
I agree completely with that statement.
DMT
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IsayAutumn
Mar 3, 2010, 7:03 PM
Post #33 of 48
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I don't know how many people die in climbing gyms each year, but I'm guessing it has a much lower incidence rate than people who die while taking shits.
Saying that you can't guarantee someone's safety in a climbing gym is like saying you can't guarantee someone's safety while they walk down the street. Of course you can't guarantee it. Sometimes crazy things happen. But that's not the point. The point is, gyms should be safe, especially for groups of beginners.
I also work occasionally at a gym and know that first-timers have no real concept of potential dangers. They are more than willing, however, to put their lives directly in my hands, without ever having met me. This is because they assume that it is safe, whether or not it actually is. And because I have kind eyes.
And gym climbing should be safe, assuming a knowledgeable employee is watching a group of n00bs. I would NEVER expect someone to be injured as a first time climber in a gym, if they were being supervised. If it did happen, such as in this case, then you are damn right the gym should be fined, or the injured party deserves compensation. There is no excuse for it.
I would think that experienced climbers have a much greater chance of being injured in a gym, taking a bad fall while leading.
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ClimbClimb
Mar 3, 2010, 7:45 PM
Post #34 of 48
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altelis wrote: So, your argument (if i got this right is): "I personally saw something happen one time therefore it is a common occurance."
Eh, no, that's not my argument, but thanks for the snarky statistics lesson.
I still believe that climbers falling to the ground in gyms because they're not properly secured to the rope is more frequent occurrence than believed by many commenters on this thread. (Note that you only improve one half of my argument by insisting that it's very rare).
Here's a typical thread on A&I, post-by-post:
1. accident happened, cause unclear
2. "idiot noobs, how could they screw that up"
3. cause established
4. "idiot people, I would never make that mistake, no one would ever make that mistake"
5. "people worry too much, try to make things too safe"
6. "I would never make that mistake"
7. "that mistake never happens other than this accident... and if it does, the people deserved it because they're idiots"
I think it's perfectly reasonable to both 1. agree with j_ung that we can't allow the over-protective, infantilizing culture to put an end to all that is interesting in life (which necessarily involves risk) and 2. take the opportunity to extract useful reminders or even lessons from unfortunate things that happen to others.
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j_ung
Mar 3, 2010, 8:04 PM
Post #35 of 48
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dingus wrote: You took exception to In reply to: "No beginner should expect to be injured during a recreational experience on an artificial wall." So a 13-year old beginner SHOULD EXPECT TO BE INJURED during a recreational experience on an artificial wall? What about a 12 year old? 10? 8? What about some fat slob at a gym because of some idiotic company team-building exercise who is coerced into climbing... should she expect to become injured during the experience?
Now that's a straw man. I neither said nor implied that anybody should expect to be injured. She (or her parents), however, should not assume there's no chance of that happening, which is what the statement in question implies.
I think if you look back at my posts in this thread, you'll see where I already clarified my opinion.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Mar 3, 2010, 8:09 PM)
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dingus
Mar 3, 2010, 8:26 PM
Post #36 of 48
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How is a 13 year old beginner supposed to come up with this conclusion that she might become injured during a recreational experience on an artificial wall?
How are her non-climbing parents supposed to know that she might become injured?
Is it self-evident?
To me if a gym cannot provide a 13-year old BEGINNER a safe experience the gym should not cater to children beginner business at all.
DMT
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altelis
Mar 3, 2010, 9:54 PM
Post #37 of 48
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ClimbClimb wrote: altelis wrote: So, your argument (if i got this right is): "I personally saw something happen one time therefore it is a common occurance." Eh, no, that's not my argument, but thanks for the snarky statistics lesson. I still believe that climbers falling to the ground in gyms because they're not properly secured to the rope is more frequent occurrence than believed by many commenters on this thread. (Note that you only improve one half of my argument by insisting that it's very rare). Here's a typical thread on A&I, post-by-post: 1. accident happened, cause unclear 2. "idiot noobs, how could they screw that up" 3. cause established 4. "idiot people, I would never make that mistake, no one would ever make that mistake" 5. "people worry too much, try to make things too safe" 6. "I would never make that mistake" 7. "that mistake never happens other than this accident... and if it does, the people deserved it because they're idiots" I think it's perfectly reasonable to both 1. agree with j_ung that we can't allow the over-protective, infantilizing culture to put an end to all that is interesting in life (which necessarily involves risk) and 2. take the opportunity to extract useful reminders or even lessons from unfortunate things that happen to others. .
Look, you still haven't shown why we should believe this problem occurs at a higher frequency than otherwise believed.
I'm NOT saying that he person is an idiot, or that I would never make that mistake myself.
You said that you saw something happen so you think it occurs with higher frequency than we normally believe it occurs. Why would I think you meant anything else by this?
Then you say "I still believe that..blah blah blah" without giving ONE reason why you would believe that. What causes you to think this is a more common occurance?
Saying something like "there have been x number of incidents in gyms over the last year in which, while we don't know for sure what the problem is, a, b, and c facts certainly point to improperly securing the rope"
And yes, I realize that you are saying "more frequently occurs than believed by MANY COMMENTERS ON THIS THREAD", but if we say that this is an extremely rare occurence, than we actually have a problem with the WHOLE argument. Why? Because the people posting on this thread BELIEVE its a rare occurence, so how does making them correct change things?
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I_do
Mar 4, 2010, 12:33 PM
Post #38 of 48
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ClimbClimb wrote: altelis wrote: So, your argument (if i got this right is): "I personally saw something happen one time therefore it is a common occurance." Eh, no, that's not my argument, but thanks for the snarky statistics lesson. I still believe that climbers falling to the ground in gyms because they're not properly secured to the rope is more frequent occurrence than believed by many commenters on this thread. (Note that you only improve one half of my argument by insisting that it's very rare). Here's a typical thread on A&I, post-by-post: 1. accident happened, cause unclear 2. "idiot noobs, how could they screw that up" 3. cause established 4. "idiot people, I would never make that mistake, no one would ever make that mistake" 5. "people worry too much, try to make things too safe" 6. "I would never make that mistake" 7. "that mistake never happens other than this accident... and if it does, the people deserved it because they're idiots" I think it's perfectly reasonable to both 1. agree with j_ung that we can't allow the over-protective, infantilizing culture to put an end to all that is interesting in life (which necessarily involves risk) and 2. take the opportunity to extract useful reminders or even lessons from unfortunate things that happen to others. .
In the past 10? years three people have died in gyms in the Netherlands. None of which were beginners, none of which tied in wrong. Unfortunately what has happened is that people pulled the belay device from the rope either because they watched another climber and thought theirs was safely on the ground, or because they thought their climber had a safety at the anchors. When climbers are climbing on their own unsupervised and have certain skills fully automatized (is that a word) is when it goes wrong.
I do believe beginners can expect to be supervised and properly instructed as well as being told that if they fail their buddy at the other end of the rope will be fucked up. They should be safe but know the consequences of mistakes. This is really not that difficult I think.
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tradmanclimbs
Mar 4, 2010, 5:54 PM
Post #41 of 48
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I am going to have to side 100% with Dingus on this one. If you are in a supervised group in a gym and get injured due to accident it is 100% the gyms responsibility. If you have graduated to the self supervised client status then you are responsible for your actions but the gym is still responsible for any and all equiptment that is provided by the gym.
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j_ung
Mar 4, 2010, 9:20 PM
Post #42 of 48
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 I give up!
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tradmanclimbs
Mar 4, 2010, 10:00 PM
Post #43 of 48
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Its a gym few christ sake. it ain't like it's rock climbing Dropping a noob at a birtday party would be akin to a personal trainer blowing a spot and crushing some poor little kid under 300 lbs of free weights
It simply is not supposed to happen.
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j_ung
Mar 4, 2010, 10:36 PM
Post #44 of 48
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I've had a look back at all my posts in this thread, and sure enough, the only time I mentioned beginners under the direct supervision of gym staff, I agreed with your point. My points are:
1. Climbing in a gym is not inherently safe, regardless of your skill level.
And... actually, that's about it.
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boymeetsrock
Mar 4, 2010, 11:24 PM
Post #45 of 48
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EWE,R3 WR0N9 !!!!@ne!1!11!!!!! 
Sorry. Couldn't help myself
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ClimbClimb
Mar 6, 2010, 5:15 PM
Post #46 of 48
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j_ung wrote: I've had a look back at all my posts in this thread, and sure enough, the only time I mentioned beginners under the direct supervision of gym staff, I agreed with your point. My points are: 1. Climbing in a gym is not inherently safe, regardless of your skill level. And... actually, that's about it.
I think we're all in violent agreement on this topic now. :-)
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ClimbSoHigh
Apr 2, 2010, 7:47 PM
Post #47 of 48
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we all really have nothing better to do than analyze a injury in a country most posters know nothing about, with no details as to how it happened. Well works over... going to climb a rock.
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