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PAbeekeeper
Apr 16, 2015, 3:11 PM
Post #26 of 31
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Registered: Mar 3, 2015
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budman wrote: You keep whining about the shitty rock ...
There's a difference between whining and actually having spent time testing placements there and having seen first hand what happens. If you never weight the piece there's no reason to thing it's not bomber.
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budman
Apr 16, 2015, 3:52 PM
Post #27 of 31
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Wow! You whine about the quality of the rock and then comment on the placements as if they are the same in all respects. There is good rock there with good placements. And if one really needs to weight each piece to prove it is actually a good placement you will by nature limit your ability to lead efficiently. After climbing and placing gear for a while one gains confidence in how good a placement really is. Aid climbing really helps in this respect as you are weighting many pieces to get to the end result and I've done enough to take care of myself while soloing walls.
As much as Stover is a pile compared to many places it does have some good climbs and a bit of history. Enough said, Stover will always hold something special for me and the time I spent there with friends. It's a cool place so climb with respect
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 16, 2015, 6:36 PM
Post #28 of 31
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budman wrote: Wow! You whine about the quality of the rock and then comment on the placements as if they are the same in all respects. There is good rock there with good placements. And if one really needs to weight each piece to prove it is actually a good placement you will by nature limit your ability to lead efficiently. After climbing and placing gear for a while one gains confidence in how good a placement really is. Aid climbing really helps in this respect as you are weighting many pieces to get to the end result and I've done enough to take care of myself while soloing walls. As much as Stover is a pile compared to many places it does have some good climbs and a bit of history. Enough said, Stover will always hold something special for me and the time I spent there with friends. It's a cool place so climb with respect
Sigh. Budman, you've been there, you know much of the rock is rotten and fractured. You also know that trad placements go into cracks in the rock, and that at Stover the cracks there are the result of the fissures in the rock fracturing in freeze/thaw cycles due to water ingress. You also know that Shale is slicker than snot.
Simply, what passes for a "good placement" elsewhere often does not work at Stover; it'll track out, fracture the rock, or a combination of both. As I've said, I've spent time actually testing this at Stover. Hell, I probably still have pics, video, and loading charts for some of it squirreled around somewhere.
Anyway, I've much enjoyed the time I've spent at Stover, but DWG is only 20 minutes further for me and the climbing there is much more enjoyable. Frankly I see Stover's suckage as a good thing, as it makes climbing elsewhere so much nicer.
EDIT: Also, Budman, let's not lose sight of the fact that we're having this discussion because someone decked at Stover, likely while leading Trad and possibly with an outrageously crazy anchor. While I am 100% in favor of doing aid while on TR at Stover to learn the art of placing gear, I'm also 100% certain that learning to lead Trad there is a patently bad idea.
(This post was edited by PAbeekeeper on Apr 16, 2015, 7:18 PM)
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 16, 2015, 7:39 PM
Post #29 of 31
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Heh. Seems Stover has even made it into the American Alpine Club's Accidnet Journal:
http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13198604801/Fall-on-Rock-Chock-Pulled-Out-Humidity-Pennsylvania-Ralph-Stover-State-Park
Short version: Experienced leader, had climbed the route several times before on TR, decided to bail and slipped while being thrown a TR, pulling both stoppers he had set.
(This post was edited by PAbeekeeper on Apr 16, 2015, 9:17 PM)
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tomcat
Apr 29, 2015, 7:06 PM
Post #30 of 31
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Registered: Sep 15, 2006
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I climbed at Stover and the Edge quite a bit from 1977 to 1983, and have visited regularly since. My climbing there includes first ascents of a number of routes, all done ground up, on hexes, later first gen Friends, and stoppers. I have never once seen a cam track out there. The top pitches of Neanderthal and Route 2 are routinely dirty, but not dangerous at all.
Far Face corner is a basic, simple trad lead, and was done plenty before there were cams. It is unbelieveable how freaked people get when things don't resemble the no brainer trad at the Gunks. Lots of routes around Moab have just as much dirt and debris.
I climbed there extensively with Tom Moffatt, John Geiger, Mel Hamel, Chris Lesher and Les Burnett, and we spent very little time toproping anything. We climbed there several days a week.
New routing there is a different story, I have broken off dozens of holds that way there. There are many solid routes including Tango Superdirect, Riff-Raff eliminate, Tales from the Crypt, which has been retrobolted into a sport climb, Obnoxious Partner, Hawks Nest and lots more.
When we started climbing there the same " it's a death route" mentality was afoot, and we were always surprised how idiotic it was when we actually got on things and climbed them. People lead there every weekend, get a grip man!
Tom Stryker
(This post was edited by tomcat on Apr 29, 2015, 7:50 PM)
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jacques
May 5, 2015, 8:56 PM
Post #31 of 31
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Registered: May 14, 2008
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budman wrote: Wow! You whine about the quality of the rock and then comment on the placements as if they are the same in all respects. There is good rock there with good placements. And if one really needs to weight each piece to prove it is actually a good placement you will by nature limit your ability to lead efficiently. After climbing and placing gear for a while one gains confidence in how good a placement really is. Aid climbing really helps in this respect as you are weighting many pieces to get to the end result and I've done enough to take care of myself while soloing walls.
I agree with you on most part of it. I am for a distinction between sport and trad and I think that where sport see impossibility to protect, trad see solution. and it is part of the fun. the testimony of tom above is a good example of that. Note that if sport had place bolt at stove, that means that the rock can hold a stopper because the bolt won't hold on shitty rock.
there is a price to learn trad and when some one want to skip the aid training will often see death as a warning or as a victim. the price is to climb at a lower level when other sport climber are at the limit of the scale. it is a choice. to climb to find beautiful places, moves or protection or to climb to be good or better than your friend with who you enjoy climbing
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