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climbingtrash
Sep 10, 2011, 9:24 PM
Post #26 of 35
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j_ung wrote: Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security. This anchor you propose is redundant and it'll work fine, although I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Load distribution is built into the system when you tie your overhand master point, so if you find you often need to adjust its arms, there might be a different issue at work. Do tie the stopper knots, though. Cyclical loading is inherent in every TR anchor, and you won't be around to keep an eye it.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the PTFTW!
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damienclimber
Sep 11, 2011, 12:43 AM
Post #27 of 35
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climbingtrash wrote: j_ung wrote: Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security. This anchor you propose is redundant and it'll work fine, although I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Load distribution is built into the system when you tie your overhand master point, so if you find you often need to adjust its arms, there might be a different issue at work. Do tie the stopper knots, though. Cyclical loading is inherent in every TR anchor, and you won't be around to keep an eye it. Don't forget to keep an eye on the PTFTW!
silly rabbits
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Danx
Sep 11, 2011, 6:41 PM
Post #28 of 35
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JimTitt
Sep 11, 2011, 7:00 PM
Post #29 of 35
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I think what everyone has been trying to tell you is that both are o.k as well as plenty of other methods. But we know clove hitches possibly aren´t the most reliable knot so stop them, a half hitch or two will be fine. I´d probably use a round turn and two half hitches on the end anyway because I´m old school and it freaks the beginners out!
Jim
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ceebo
Sep 11, 2011, 8:36 PM
Post #30 of 35
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Why the overhand bite though? their worse than fig 8's to undo.
Also, safety is great and all but i personally think 3 points is overkill, even for single pitch trad.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Sep 11, 2011, 8:46 PM)
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Danx
Sep 11, 2011, 8:48 PM
Post #31 of 35
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ceebo
Sep 11, 2011, 8:57 PM
Post #32 of 35
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Danx wrote: ceebo wrote: Why the overhand bite though? their worse than fig 8's to undo. Just put overhand on the diagram for reference. I sometimes tie a fig 8 at the end instead. But I find if i do diagram b with a 10.5mm static rope, a fig 8 knott can be a bit clumpy. In this instance i've never really had any problems undoing an overhand.
Use a 2 point anchor then, easier to equalize and tie in bunny or w/e.
Missed your edit - if you think you need 3 then ofc, go for it.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Sep 11, 2011, 9:01 PM)
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Rmsyll2
Sep 15, 2011, 2:57 AM
Post #33 of 35
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The basic answer to your basic question is that Clove alone is doubted, and you still have doubts about that.
To me, using a single line for three anchors is a new rigging to me. I would expect a cordelette loop, so that connecting that loop would be the only knot in the line, until making the equalization knot for the belay point. It also puts two strands at all three anchors, where you have one line to two anchors, making those two like backups for the central anchor. Yours may depend on using fat and strong cord? If so, a Clove is more difficult to make and cinch tight enough to hold.
.
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jjones16
Sep 22, 2011, 1:47 AM
Post #34 of 35
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I don't use a figure 8 or a clove hitch on my top rope anchors. I either use sewn slings (one coming from each anchor point; provided that all the points are fairly even to each other) or I use a 8mm cordelette employing the standard load anticipation (on a top rope the load is most likely to be straight down) and use an overhand to tie all the loops in a master point. That was the longest sentence I've ever written. Generally clove hitches are used when there is no danger of the knot slipping out from tension release. One example would be securing yourself to an anchor with your climbing rope. One end of the rope is tied to your harness; the other end is running to your second (below you) and the clove is in between. It can also be used in the same fashion, but multiple times on different anchor pieces to equalize among multiple pieces. Even in this scenario, a loose end of the rope that could possibly slip out of a clove hitch is never possible because both ends are tied into something else. Clove hitches are great knots; easily adjustable, very strong under tension as you pointed out, and easy to tie and untie (you don't really untie it, you just let it slip off the biner. Every knot has an ideal purpose. The clove hitch in a top rope anchor should only be employed if is used within a securely tied cordelette. Honestly though, if you're belaying from the ground and just doing single pitch stuff, your top rope anchors should be strong, simple and functional. If you're doing multipitch stuff, there's a whole slew of shit you need to know... but I get the feeling you were just referring to setting up an anchor on single pitch stuff at your local crag. For future reference, if you can't post a picture, try to describe an image of your anchor and how you're employing the knots so that more experienced climbers can offer advice that's tailored to a more concise question and scenario. It might be worthwhile for you to pick up John Long's book on anchors. Have fun and be safe.
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horseshoe
Sep 22, 2011, 3:08 AM
Post #35 of 35
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Danx wrote: Just wondered what advantage using a fig 8 knot instead of 2 clove hitches has when setting up top rope anchors?
A clove hitch is also a good knot, but it has potential problems (as pointed out above) with the way you propose to use it.
Experimentation and innovation are worthy traits, but rarely with your safety system. Your clove hitch system will probably work most of the time for you--but it is not as reliable as an eight.
Edit: FYI, I usually use a cordelette or slings depending on the situation.
(This post was edited by horseshoe on Sep 22, 2011, 3:13 AM)
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