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Mark_25
Jun 25, 2013, 12:21 AM
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Looking to get some opinions on natural top rope anchors, something very simple but safe. This is what I was thinking.
1) Girth hitch two trees with a sling
2) Locking biner on both slings
3) Use one static line to connect the tree slings to a master point
4) Use a figure 8 knot in the static line (which now has two bunny ears) to attach the master point (opposite and opposed locking biners)
This sounds pretty confusing, wondering if anyone made sense of it? All inputs appreciated!
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jt512
Jun 25, 2013, 12:54 AM
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Mark_25 wrote: Looking to get some opinions on natural top rope anchors, something very simple but safe. This is what I was thinking. 1) Girth hitch two trees with a sling 2) Locking biner on both slings 3) Use one static line to connect the tree slings to a master point 4) Use a figure 8 knot in the static line (which now has two bunny ears) to attach the master point (opposite and opposed locking biners) This sounds pretty confusing, wondering if anyone made sense of it? All inputs appreciated!
Where's that popcorn smiley?
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Mark_25
Jun 25, 2013, 1:13 AM
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I present: the worst artists rendition. Hopefully this helps or at least provides some humour
(This post was edited by Mark_25 on Jun 26, 2013, 11:52 AM)
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Top rope anchor.jpg
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mckbill
Jun 25, 2013, 2:20 PM
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Mark_25,
A picture of this setup would be helpful, but your description is pretty good for the mind's eye.
1) = okay (maybe pad the trees (stout living trees) with towels to be kind). I live by the rule of three arms to my anchors and would include a third tree, but I'm from Iowa.
2) lockers not necessary here, but fine to use them.
3) = good (figure 8 on a bite, or butter fly knot are good for this)
4) sounds good: that's two figure 8 knots nearby and joined to form the master point? Lockers are good here, could go with one locker and one non-locker (gates opposed absolutely necessary).
A picture would help especially for #4.
Remember to pad the edge to protect your static line forming the master point and also consider how the top rope may suffer damage if it rubs against anything while the climber is being lowered off.
If you have enough webbing a good alternative to the girth hitch to the trees is to build each arm like a rescue anchor and use the 'wrap three pull two' method. With that you don't need to worry so much about padding the tree with towels or whatnot.
G'luck!
--Bill
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dagibbs
Jun 25, 2013, 5:02 PM
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Where you say "double figure 8", I assume you mean pull all the cords together, and just tie it in a figure 8. One can, also, just use an over-hand knot at that point -- both are safe, one uses more rope than the other (positioning your master point differently), and one may end up easier to untie than the other after weighting.
Where you have the rope-end biners clipped through the loops below the masterpoint -- it is common to have both lockers through both loops, rather than separating them the way you do, but your should be fine.
Only real judgement call is whether two trees are enough/too much. Generally speaking, one big tree (living, and well rooted) is bomber. (Though, still make sure the slings around it, etc are redundant.) Two moderate trees fine, if the trees are smaller, or the ground/rooting not so good, maybe three trees.
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sittingduck
Jun 25, 2013, 6:56 PM
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sittingduck
Jun 26, 2013, 6:54 AM
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curt wrote: sittingduck wrote: [image]http://home.no/sittingduck/basictoprope.jpg[/image] Looks good to me, but (assuming you have enough rope) it wouldn't hurt to wrap the rope around the left tree too. It distributes the force and is easier on the tree. Curt
Absolutely!
Talking about rope length, what would you do if the rope on the right tree was to long to practically tie a fig eight follow through?
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dagibbs
Jun 26, 2013, 7:13 AM
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sittingduck wrote: curt wrote: sittingduck wrote: [image]http://home.no/sittingduck/basictoprope.jpg[/image] Looks good to me, but (assuming you have enough rope) it wouldn't hurt to wrap the rope around the left tree too. It distributes the force and is easier on the tree. Curt Absolutely! Talking about rope length, what would you do if the rope on the right tree was to long to practically tie a fig eight follow through?
Could do a figure-8 on a byte, then clip it with a biner. Or, one of many hitches.
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mikebee
Jun 26, 2013, 8:06 AM
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In reply to: Talking about rope length, what would you do if the rope on the right tree was to long to practically tie a fig eight follow through?
There's a few options:
- bowline (with good finish/barrell knot)
- alpine butterfly on loaded side of rope, fig 8 on a bight on the other end, joined with a locker
- sling the tree, clip a carabiner and use a fig 8 on a bight or a clove hitch to attach the rope. Put a double overhand or fig 8 on a bight after the clove if desired.
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Syd
Jun 26, 2013, 11:23 AM
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mikebee wrote: - sling the tree, clip a carabiner and use a fig 8 on a bight or a clove hitch to attach the rope. Put a double overhand or fig 8 on a bight after the clove if desired.
Yes, slings around trees to avoid ringbarking and killing them with rope.
2 separate statics is easier and quicker in many situations.
Always use 2 lockers opposed, making sure they are facing in opposite directions (they may shred the rope if they face the same way and twist, as has happened)
Always use rope protectiors on the cliff edge (easy for a new static to cut through)
Have a prussik on one static and clip into it when moving around on top of the cliff ... tripping and falling over the edge has been a major cause of death for experienced climbers.
Belay well away from the base of the cliff ... rock fall from moving statics is common. The belayer should clip into a direct belay to a ground anchor.
Use a fake lead on overhangs to prevent swinging into the ground on low falls. A loose fake lead also help getting back on higher up.
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Mark_25
Jun 26, 2013, 11:45 AM
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sittingduck wrote: [image]http://home.no/sittingduck/basictoprope.jpg[/image]
This looks way more simple than what I was trying to do, I like it! Having the wrap around the trees would help make sure both lines were equally loaded by using any spare rope?
Also like the idea of wrapping both trees.
What size static cord should I be using?
(This post was edited by Mark_25 on Jun 26, 2013, 11:54 AM)
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Syd
Jun 28, 2013, 12:04 AM
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Mark_25 wrote: sittingduck wrote: [image]http://home.no/sittingduck/basictoprope.jpg[/image] This looks way more simple than what I was trying to do, I like it! Having the wrap around the trees would help make sure both lines were equally loaded by using any spare rope? Also like the idea of wrapping both trees. What size static cord should I be using?
Do not put rope around trees. It will eventually kill them.
There's what was a wonderful tree more than a foot in dia, at the top of a classic route near here that has been killed in this manner. The dead tree is still being used as the anchor for the route. The tree will get it's own back when it breaks from the termites that are now eating it, when a climber is on the route.
(This post was edited by Syd on Jun 28, 2013, 12:08 AM)
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billcoe_
Jun 28, 2013, 2:34 AM
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Syd wrote: Do not put rope around trees. It will eventually kill them.
Never seen it happen around here. Ever.
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sittingduck
Jun 28, 2013, 5:40 AM
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billcoe_ wrote: Syd wrote: Do not put rope around trees. It will eventually kill them. Never seen it happen around here. Ever.
Me neither.
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majid_sabet
Jun 28, 2013, 7:11 AM
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over killed for a simple TR anchor
best way is to use one tree ( if its strong) double up rope, one simple double overhand knot and one fat fig at master point. Do not need all the BS sliding /equalizing nonsense with multiple fig 8 here and there.
Keep it simple, keep it strong
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curt
Jun 29, 2013, 2:09 AM
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sittingduck wrote: billcoe_ wrote: Syd wrote: Do not put rope around trees. It will eventually kill them. Never seen it happen around here. Ever. Me neither.
Trees are often killed by repeatedly rappelling directly off them and then pulling the rope down--not by merely using them as anchors, however.
Curt
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acorneau
Jun 29, 2013, 12:00 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: over killed for a simple TR anchor best way is to use one tree ( if its strong) double up rope, one simple double overhand knot and one fat fig at master point. Do not need all the BS sliding /equalizing nonsense with multiple fig 8 here and there. Keep it simple, keep it strong
I can't agree with you here Majid.
The purpose of having two trees is to maintain the ropes going over the edge in one spot, thus reducing the cutting action from the edge.
If you have just one tree with one set of lines going over the edge then as the climbers move laterally the master point will get pulled that way and start the sawing action.
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majid_sabet
Jun 30, 2013, 7:45 AM
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you can always set your simple main master and have a CH redirect from side anchor to set your line to where you want.
in the jumbo BS anchor setup, you must undo tons of fig8 and equalizing if your center is off while in redirect, you just adjust your CH .still your main anchor is simple and your second is just a cord, one CH and one biner with flexibility to put the master at where you want.
Again this is a TR and beefy redirect is not that critical.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 30, 2013, 7:48 AM)
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sittingduck
Jul 1, 2013, 6:48 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: over killed for a simple TR anchor best way is to use one tree ( if its strong) double up rope, one simple double overhand knot and one fat fig at master point. Do not need all the BS sliding /equalizing nonsense with multiple fig 8 here and there. Keep it simple, keep it strong
EDIT (link to external material removed):
Btw, this topic has been discussed at RC at least once (with your participation)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2415832;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
(This post was edited by sittingduck on Jul 2, 2013, 6:53 PM)
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JimTitt
Jul 2, 2013, 10:31 AM
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I´m not a professional top-roper!
The illustration is taken out of context from a piece about top-anchors for people bolting routes from the top and is not how I would teach anyone to set up an anchor for climbing. Specifically we require the central karabiner to be before the edge so we can abseil over and then arrange a re-belay where the rope hangs without rubbing on anything and the attatchment point is in sight of the person on the rope.
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Syd
Jul 2, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Very poor. The climbing rope would have huge friction over the edge with the potential to be shredded by a sharp edge.
There must be double, opposed locking biners hanging over the edge. Lockers and doubles are essential because movement can undo and even open them (I've seen it happen).
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JimTitt
Jul 2, 2013, 6:05 PM
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Syd wrote: Very poor. The climbing rope would have huge friction over the edge with the potential to be shredded by a sharp edge. There must be double, opposed locking biners hanging over the edge. Lockers and doubles are essential because movement can undo and even open them (I've seen it happen).
You don´t bother to read do you? I already posted why my graphic is taken totally out of context and not related to top-rope climbing.
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sittingduck
Jul 2, 2013, 6:58 PM
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JimTitt wrote: I´m not a professional top-roper! The illustration is taken out of context from a piece about top-anchors for people bolting routes from the top and is not how I would teach anyone to set up an anchor for climbing. Specifically we require the central karabiner to be before the edge so we can abseil over and then arrange a re-belay where the rope hangs without rubbing on anything and the attatchment point is in sight of the person on the rope.
Have removed the ref to your useful material.
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