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bigga
Aug 20, 2002, 5:08 PM
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Heres a scary story that heppened to me a few months ago and I want to know what you think.
An experienced climber told me that once I have screwed tight a locking biner I should unscrew it just enough so that it wont be tight.
Short story long, a few months later me and my brother were climbing, I was leading the second pitch and he was standing on a ledge 20 meters up, clipped into a bolt on the wall by a sling going through a biner that I had double checked was closed exactly how the climber had shown us.
Anyway I lead up, it got dark so my brother lowerd me back down without climbing up.
About a meter before I got to the ledge, somehow the gate had unscrewed itself a bit, the sling that was attached to the wall somehow put pressure on the gate, opened it and slipped out. Thank G-d I hadn't hit ground yet and my weight on the rope kept him up otherwise I dont like to think what might have happened. (btw, the gate couldn't close again because the screw hadn't opened enough)
Am I correct in saying that that was shitty advice? Whether it was or wasn't since then I never have and never will climb without the biner closed tight..
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transse
Aug 20, 2002, 5:14 PM
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Sounds like a crappy locker. I think you may have backed it off too much. Backing off the sleeve usually does not cause a problem. If you leave the sleeve locked, when loaded, it could get stuck. Then you are safe, yet screwed. I back it off about a 1/4 turn from dead over, and I have never had one unlock. Maybe try to get an autolocker in the future. Not so much bad advice as bad luck I guess....
Jake
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howitzer
Aug 20, 2002, 5:17 PM
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Big - it is common practice to tighten a biner all the way, then do a SLIGHT un-twist reason being when you load the biner it tightens even more. So if you tighten it all the way you run the risk of it being un-openable again. It seems like the advise was good, but the demonstration was poor because you unscrewed it too far? It is a very slight twist (like 1/4 twist) back towards open when using this method. Not a full turn or anything. It seems like that's where the problem was. Glad everything turned out OK! And always good to check on advise with books and others if you are unsure.
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killclimbz
Aug 20, 2002, 5:17 PM
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! Sonds like some shitty advice to me. I'm thinking this guys is talking about locking the screwgate under weight. If you do this it can be a real bitch to to get it unlocked when you are on the ground or have it unweighted. The simple solution is to weight the carabiner and unscrew it.
Moral of the story? If you are using a locker with out any tension on it, crank it up tight. If it's weighted tighten it, just don't crank it too hard or you may never get it undone. Don't back it off unless you are real sure of what you are doing.
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tim
Aug 20, 2002, 5:21 PM
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Get yourself some twistlocks.
The advice was not as bad as you think -- if a screwgate locks up after you screw it tight under load, you may not be able to unscrew it. If you're into an anchor with it, this could very well be a problem.
Personally, I despise screwgates for exactly this reason. I prefer the REI/Omega Pacific 'Jake' HMS-style lockers as their collars are secure but unlock without much fuss. I also have an old BD bayonet-style locker for my rappel backups, since I really, really don't want that one opening up unintentionally.
I do not think that the fellow's advice is as shitty as you might believe following your unfortunate incident. But, you do always have to think for yourself when climbing, and it's good that you are critical of others' advice. I just want to remind you to look at the other side of the coin, which is to say, the issue of 'welded' screwgates and getting out of them (which can require pliers or a 'belay knife' if you're unlucky).
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interruptor
Aug 20, 2002, 5:49 PM
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I ususally just screw it by letting it roll by itself, then tighten it just a litlle bit more...
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rrrADAM
Aug 20, 2002, 5:54 PM
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Quote:
"...clipped into a bolt on the wall by a sling going through a biner..."
You should never trust your life, or anyone else's, to just one piece of pro.
1 bolt=1 piece of pro.
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rush
Aug 20, 2002, 6:14 PM
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Not much to add to the above posts, just this: In case your biner gets locked so hard you can't unscrew it when loaded, you can unlock it by tieing a prussik knot or a girth hitch to the screw, and then pulling it to unscrew the biner.
Be safe an climb on
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bigga
Aug 20, 2002, 6:32 PM
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It seems like I stand corrected about the advice he gave me.
Then let this at least serve as warning to everyone to please be carefull when doing that simple thing of backscrewing the lock...
think of what might have happened...
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waxman
Aug 21, 2002, 12:38 AM
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It's not bad advice......I had a biner running in though both belay loops on my friend's harness one time, and he must have tightened it all the way. Anyway, we couldn't get it off and we had to take it to my house and take a wrench to it. Ever since then, I loosen it about a quarter turn.
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apollodorus
Aug 21, 2002, 2:00 AM
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If the rope runs across the locking sleeve of a biner, it'll open it even if you screw it all the way down. You should crank the sleeve SHUT! And then when you want to open it, if it's stuck, clip a sling to it and bounce a bit as you try to turn it.
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karlbaba
Aug 21, 2002, 3:27 AM
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Here's some important biner unscrewing beta. If you find a locking biner you just can't unscrew, and it's unweighted, hang on it or otherwise weight it and try to unscrew it while it's weighted.
If it's weighted and you can't unscrew it, see if you can unweight it and then try
Peace
karl
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gunked
Aug 21, 2002, 4:02 AM
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rrradam is right.
How is it that out of everybody that replied to the post, ONE PERSON noticed that the real problem was the fact that TWO LIVES depended on ONE BINER!
People please, WAKE UP!!!
You should always be backed with a separate system.
Okay - Let's deal with basics. Think of a climbing system as links of a chain. What happens when one link breaks? EXACTLY!!! You die!
There are times when on piece of gear is holding your life. Your harness or rope when you fall. The belay device or biner. Everything else should be, at least, doubled. One bolt does not an anchor make. At least two bomber bolts with two separate systems (In case one fails) make a belay anchor. This should be considered a minimum.
Climbing can be a dangerous activity, therefore, let's not increase our chances of death, LET'S DECREASE THEM!
[ This Message was edited by: gunked on 2002-08-20 21:02 ]
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 21, 2002, 4:10 AM
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Unscrewing the locking ring on a biner a quarter or half a turn is definitely unequivocably bad advice. It`s a locking biner do it up and leave it alone. Do as Karl has said and if you can`t get it undone then weight it and it will usually come undone.
I don`t believe that any manufacturer advises that locking biners should be backed off so that they can be easily undone. This is a piece of climbing mythology that should once and for all be stomped on. Mate do your biner up and leave it alone, it`s a locking biner let it do its job.
Another word of advice always orient your biner so that the screw gate is away from your working area and make sure that the screw gat screws downwards so that gravity will keep the screw from undoing.
I`ve never yet had a biner come undone on me using these principles, except for that time when I failed to take my own good advice and set up a muenter rap and the running part of the rope rubbed up against the screw and undid it and then proceeded to jump through the gate, fortunately I was a foot above the ground and I had a firm grip on the rope and merely lowered myself down to the ground vowing to never again set it up that way.
...Phil...
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geezergecko
Aug 21, 2002, 3:32 PM
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This backing off a quarter turn applied to all old style locking biners. This was because the sleeve jammed up against the biner arm. Most new style biners (eg. Petzl) leave extra space at the end of the sleeve so that tightening the sleeve while even under load would not result in a stuck biner. This is a case where advances in climbing gear makes prior good practice questionable.
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newtocalgary
Aug 21, 2002, 4:01 PM
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The question I have is why were you and your brother anchored to one bolt and one sling through the same biner
The key is back up two bolts two slings biners for anchor biner for lowering
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monkeyface1982
Aug 22, 2002, 5:55 AM
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all i ahve to say is do the sucker up as tight as you want
dont over crank but never back it off
if you cant undo it use a pair of pliers to get it untighted
youd be suprised on what a little twist with pliers can help
always have one with you
the leatherman stlye works best
it folds up and wont stab you
better it be too tight and never gettin it undone then it doing it itself and you being smeared over the deck.
climb safe, and a to reply to rrradam about clipping to only one bolt
its not the best thing to trust only one peice
but it isent that bad
if somethings going to blow its going to blow no matter what
thats the risk you take climibng
youll one day no matter what ppl say have to do it
so dont say NEVER
cause youll have to use self judgment
i trust all the gear i use including bolts
this might seem silly
but thats the sport
if you dont trust only one pice of pro
then i understand but please dont tell others NEVER DO THIS, NEVER DO THAT
you can only advise ppl what you think is a good decision
dont TELL them
i think thats a little wrong
but its always comes back to self judgment
if you trust it go for it
but relise the outcome
i dosent take any more or less time to add another bomber peice
so its totally up to the individual
keep it safe
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joemor
Aug 22, 2002, 6:26 AM
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" rrradam about clipping to only one bolt
its not the best thing to trust only one peice
but it isent that bad
if somethings going to blow its going to blow no matter what
thats the risk you take climibng
youll one day no matter what ppl say have to do it
so dont say NEVER
cause youll have to use self judgment
i trust all the gear i use including bolts "
are you insane??????
you talk about judgement...... your judgement is screwed.... never trust your life to one piece of pro, and yes i can say that because i never belay off one bit of gear...never
if you want to trust your life to one anchor go ahead, but dont belay anyone else of it, then its not just your life you are risking but someone elses.
how on earth can you trust a bolt on it own when you didnt place it, i dont even trust one bombproof anchor i have placed, ive seen some droopy bolts and sure as hell wouldnt trust them, and ive seen new shiney bolts that lift out...... not a good thing to trust on its own.
..... due to the nature of this site, where not everyone is an experienced climber it is imperitive that the right information and the SAFEST practices are reccomended, the post is in the bigginers forum after all.
joe
edit: added more ranting
[ This Message was edited by: joemor on 2002-08-21 23:29 ]
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bigfatfinga
Aug 22, 2002, 6:31 AM
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NEVER trust your life to one piece of pro.
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jds100
Aug 22, 2002, 6:53 PM
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For whomever reads this thread, I want to add my agreement that Monkeyface is giving very bad advice here. Look to other RC.com members and other sources for good advice, based on decades of experience.
Someone brought it up: I wonder what the orientation of the screwgate locking biner was on the harness, relative to the rope, etc. Oriented correctly, anything that passes over the gate should actually tighten the gate.
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