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freudian
Oct 3, 2002, 7:56 PM
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I've noticed that in media of all kinds, great climbers like Lynn Hill or Royal Robins are mentioned and praised for their astounding feats. Generally it takes TWO to climb a route. One person to lead and one to belay and then later second. If this person is seconding for a great climber, that must mean that they are pretty damned good climbers as well, right?
Anyhow, basically, any ideas as to why the 2nd or belayer is rarely mentioned in the media for major climbing feats?
Andrew
[ This Message was edited by: freudian on 2002-10-03 12:58 ]
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petsfed
Oct 3, 2002, 8:08 PM
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Sometimes, in slick sport routes, the draws are hung on rappel, then retrieved on rappel, such that the belayer just holds the rope. Sometimes, on big trad climbs the second jugs the pitch and cleans it that way. In any event, it serves no purpose on these incredible climbs for the second to exhaust him or herself by climbing at or above their comfort level if they're the rescuers in case the leader goes in a bad way. In addition, to a lot of climbers, seconding is little more than top roping with a different purpose. No one has ever gotten on the cover of Rock & Ice or Climbing while on top rope.
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transse
Oct 3, 2002, 8:26 PM
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I see your point about the belay, but they are sometimes given credit. I think it depends solely on the type of route. If for instance it is a Grade V wall the belay would usually be mentioned even if he didn't free the climb. The belay still has to suffer the same, or maybe not....
Jake
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freudian
Oct 3, 2002, 8:30 PM
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OKay. Thanks Petsfed. I was thinking that might be the case for most. Also, maybe someone could explain "Simul-climbing" to me in a PM or email.
FREUDIAN
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dsafanda
Oct 3, 2002, 8:32 PM
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On big wall free attempts the second is often not even climbing but jugging a fixed line to move as fast as possible.
Some of this is a fairly recent developemnt in terms of style. It wasn't that long ago that long noteworthy FA's were indeed accomplished by a pair of climbers swapping leads. It does still happen...I believe Rodden and Caldwell free climbed Lurking Fear together. However, this has become more of the exception than the rule.
Climbing has always been about style and right now the style of the day does not include swapping leads. It makes sense. It's much much more impressive that Lynn Hill free climbed every pitch of the Nose instead of just half of them.
In terms of someone getting credit for simply belaying and following on what is essentially a top-rope...they don't really deserve much credit do they? If you're not leading you're not really climbing the same route. I could possibly follow someone up a 5.12 crack but I couldn't lead it in my wildest dreams. Huge difference!
[ This Message was edited by: dsafanda on 2002-10-03 13:43 ]
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tradguy
Oct 3, 2002, 8:41 PM
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For the benefit of anyone else who may also be curious.....
simul-climbing = both leader and second climb at the same time, at roughly the same rate. Leader puts gear in occasionally (typically not very often, since the ground being covered is usually not anywhere close to either climber's upper end of technical ability) and the second pulls it, just like normal. The catch is that the weight of the other climber tied into the other end of the rope acts as the belay, so it is important that both climbers climb at the same rate and stop at the same time, in order to keep slack out of the rope. It's a good way to cover alot of distance quickly, since you're both climbing at the same time, and you aren't setting up and tearing down belays.
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jgill
Oct 6, 2002, 2:09 AM
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Wow . . . I know it's done, but that sounds spooky. Isn't that what guides used to do in the Alps in the 19th century? The question neophytes used to ask: If one falls, doesn't he pull the other off?
In modern times it would seem safer to unrope.
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andy_lemon
Oct 6, 2002, 2:14 AM
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I HAVE YOU ALL NOW! Who were the first ever to simul-climb?
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curt
Oct 6, 2002, 2:14 AM
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One other point. If there is any doubt as to ability, it is useful for the better climber who is simul-climbing to be the one seconding, rather than leading.
Curt
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taorock
Oct 6, 2002, 2:56 AM
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Tiblocs!
The first person attaches a tibloc to a bomber piece of pro (short sling), the rope can move up but, if the second falls he is "caught" by the tibloc without pulling the first climber off. If the first climber falls he is "caught" by the second.
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petsfed
Oct 7, 2002, 4:15 AM
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Except if it is not weighted correctly, all it does is damage your rope. A Petzl rep wrote to Climbing after a trad Tech-Tip said it was a good idea because it isn't if you don't know what you're doing. As with every good idea for efficient climbing, practice under controlled circumstances before going for broke.
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mainline
Oct 30, 2002, 1:56 AM
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I would have to agree with dsafanda.
However, sometimes it's the media savy of one of the climbers that gets them all of the attention. I think a good example of this is the team of Reinhold Messner and Peter Habeler. Many of the greatest climbs Messner did are only attributed to him while Habeler was right there with him doing an equal amount of the work. Many people attribute this to Messners prolific publication of books as well as his media savy.
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polarwid
Oct 30, 2002, 9:07 PM
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Take a look at the names of some of the older Yosemite Valley routes, and notice that there are TWO names on a few of them, such as the STECK-SALATHE, etc...
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andy_lemon
Oct 31, 2002, 1:40 AM
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Aid & Alan Burgess were the first to ever simulclimb, for your info...
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thomasribiere
Nov 2, 2002, 6:36 PM
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In alpine routes (in the Alps, I mean) both names are always mentionned, and sometimes 3 names when the first climbers were 3.
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