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Terry2124
May 22, 2009, 5:47 PM
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curt wrote: Terry2124 wrote: curt wrote: codefrog wrote: I tried searching for this but couldn't find anything more than just a few comments about being double-backed and such. I'm 2 months new to climbing and believe me I feel like I'm claiming way to much just saying that. We are strictly top-roping as a family and our mantra goes a certain way. As I was rehearsing it with my son I began to wonder what steps I might be missing or how the steps may change for sport or trad climbing. Our mantra goes like this (top-rope): ASSERT: I'm on belay and my son is climbing. I check his harness visually. I always look for nicks, cuts or outwards signs of stress. I inspect his buckles. 1. "Harness, no cuts, nicks or signs of stress." 2. "Waist, doubled." 3. "Left loop, doubled." 4. "Right loop, doubled." Then I tie the figure 8 and biner him. I use locking biners which have a visible red line if they are not locked. I say: 5. "Red is dead. You are locked. No red." I count out the figure 8 inspecting it's completeness. 6. "Figure 8, Stoppered." 7. "Belay, stoppered." I then thread the rope through the ATC. 8. "Belay is on the ATC." Then I check my harness. 9. "Waist, doubled." 10. "Left loop, doubled." 11. "Right loop, doubled." 12. "Belay loop, binered, rope is on." 13. "Biner is locked. No red." 14. "Climber, you look good." 15. He says, "Belay, you look good." 16. He says, "On belay?" 17. I reply, "Belay is on." 18. He says, "Climbing?" 19. I say, "Climb on." 20. I say "Adjusting slack." as I adjust tension on the rope. He takes off climbing. Are we missing anything?... Well, a shot of whisky beforehand might relax you a tad.  Curt A shot of whisky would probably make you cry! No, only spilling good whisky makes me cry. Curt
lol same here 
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dschultz
May 22, 2009, 5:59 PM
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Yep, they are curious little buggers and they do "fiddle" with stuff. As you know with their ages they will be distracted easily and of course they do not have the cognative development you do. Expect the unexpected ! That is one of the joys of parenthood. It sounds as if they already made the erroneous leap of "all biners are equal" . That is why tying in seems even more apropos. When my kids competed in JCCA they were required to tie their own figure 8 into their harness for the comps. My 8 year-old included.
You sound like a great dad spending quality time with your kids. Glad you're asking others their opinions about an activity where safety and common sense rule the day. Enjoy...
dschultz
"It is what we learn after we know it all that really counts."
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codefrog
May 22, 2009, 6:31 PM
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dschultz wrote: ...That is why tying in seems even more apropos...You sound like a great dad spending quality time with your kids. Glad you're asking others their opinions about an activity where safety and common sense rule the day. Enjoy... dschultz "It is what we learn after we know it all that really counts."
If I don't ask all 4 of us will be dead soon. I enjoy the "learning" of the sport almost as much as the "doing" of the sport.
I love it because it's not a team sport sorted by ages. I'm not driving 3 kids to their own soccer practice. I'm driving all of us to the same place where we can laugh and play and not get fat together.
Totally hooked to be sure...
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Brhino90
May 22, 2009, 6:51 PM
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codefrog wrote: dschultz wrote: ...That is why tying in seems even more apropos...You sound like a great dad spending quality time with your kids. Glad you're asking others their opinions about an activity where safety and common sense rule the day. Enjoy... dschultz "It is what we learn after we know it all that really counts." If I don't ask all 4 of us will be dead soon. I enjoy the "learning" of the sport almost as much as the "doing" of the sport. I love it because it's not a team sport sorted by ages. I'm not driving 3 kids to their own soccer practice. I'm driving all of us to the same place where we can laugh and play and not get fat together. Totally hooked to be sure...
I wish you were my dad...haha. You're radical ass!
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jermanimal
May 22, 2009, 6:59 PM
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We used to do a bowline on a bite with half fishermans at Summer Camp. Belaying 100 kids over an afternoon wouldn't be possible if you were tying in each time.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-tie-a-bowline-on-a-bite-knot-53439/
Then used one big auto locking steel biner. Although I would go with two opposite and opposed locked now.
This gives you two lines over the biner which is less stress on the rope. Not that you need super strength to belay kids on a TR. You will have a much easier time untying your rope at the end of the day too.
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codefrog
May 22, 2009, 7:17 PM
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jermanimal wrote: ...We used to do a bowline on a bite with half fishermans at Summer Camp... This gives you two lines over the biner which is less stress on the rope...
Does this provide any advantages over a double-figure 8? At the end of the day I can break down (undress) an 8 with no trouble at all. I've done a lot of different load testing on an 8 as well and near as I can tell that for a good rope the more you load it the tighter the 8 draws down and I wasn't able to see any slippage.
I pulled a few junipers straight out of the ground with static 10mm, double-8 and my car hitch. I thought for sure I'd need tools to break the knot but it broke right down. BTW - the juniper got it's @$$ kicked.
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jt512
May 22, 2009, 7:17 PM
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codefrog wrote: The reason the mantra became necessary and that I missed my db's 3 different times is *MY* fault. I own it. The problem I kept encountering is this. [...] I got into trouble though because every single time I'm half way into my harness someone wants me to harness up their kids or get them on rope.
Briefly, the problem is that you allowed yourself to get interrupted while you were putting on your harness. I don't use a 20-step pre-climb checklist, but I do have three hard and fast pre-climb rules: Once I start putting on my harness, I don't do anything else until I'm sure it's doubled back; once I start tying in, I don't stop until I've checked that my knot is good; and, once I start to put someone on belay, I don't stop until I've finished and double-checked the setup. If someone asks me to do something, or even asks me a question that requires more than a quick "yes" or "no" response, while I'm in the middle of one of these tasks, I politely tell them to wait until I'm finished.
Jay
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codefrog
May 22, 2009, 7:22 PM
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jt512 wrote: Briefly, the problem is that you allowed yourself to get interrupted while you were putting on your harness. I don't use a 20-step pre-climb checklist, but I do have three hard and fast pre-climb rules: Once I start putting on my harness, I don't do anything else until I'm sure it's doubled back; once I start tying in, I don't stop until I've checked that my knot is good; and, once I start to put someone on belay, I don't stop until I've finished and double-checked the setup. If someone asks me to do something, or even asks me a question that requires more than a quick "yes" or "no" response, while I'm in the middle of one of these tasks, I politely tell them to wait until I'm finished. Jay
Yes! Undeniably this is correct. I'm so glad I started this thread because the experience gained has been 10 orders of magnitude larger than the question. That's what I call a huge ROI. Huge!!!
I'll be changing my routine (for the better) after today. I still think I'm going to truss up my kids though. That's just too fun to not do at least once. Then I'm going to spray them down with ice water and leave em for a bit.
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altelis
May 22, 2009, 7:36 PM
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codefrog wrote: jt512 wrote: Briefly, the problem is that you allowed yourself to get interrupted while you were putting on your harness. I don't use a 20-step pre-climb checklist, but I do have three hard and fast pre-climb rules: Once I start putting on my harness, I don't do anything else until I'm sure it's doubled back; once I start tying in, I don't stop until I've checked that my knot is good; and, once I start to put someone on belay, I don't stop until I've finished and double-checked the setup. If someone asks me to do something, or even asks me a question that requires more than a quick "yes" or "no" response, while I'm in the middle of one of these tasks, I politely tell them to wait until I'm finished. Jay Yes! Undeniably this is correct. I'm so glad I started this thread because the experience gained has been 10 orders of magnitude larger than the question. That's what I call a huge ROI. Huge!!! I'll be changing my routine (for the better) after today. I still think I'm going to truss up my kids though. That's just too fun to not do at least once. Then I'm going to spray them down with ice water and leave em for a bit.
This is why I love working with kids. The camp I worked at was here in DC, where the summers are so freaking hot. The camp property has a large covered concrete area with tables etc for when it rains. We go off site to climb and sometimes its clear the day is ending earlier than normal, so we pack up and get back earlier than the buses leave or parents arrive. One time for fun I strung some ropes from the rafters, told a kid to put his harness on. So he did, I grabbed him, picked him up and clipped him to the rope. He had a fun time just swinging around.
So I tossed out a bunch of harnesses and kids eagerly put them on and asked to get clipped up......then I walk away and casually get some water from the hose. At which point kid A shouts I should spray kid C.
So.........of course I comply. At least with what kid A REALLY wanted and I sprayed kid A. He LOVED it. So then we (staff) proceeded to run around grabbing our campers, hanging them up and spraying them down in the 90+ degree heat.
They had a blast. Squeels of joy all around, for sure. Well, until some of the parents showed up. Stuffy well off DC suburbanites, some of them. Some of them weren't terribly happy to let little Sammy into the car all soaking wet. Oh well. They loved it! Thats what I'm there for.....
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codefrog
May 22, 2009, 7:47 PM
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altelis wrote: ...This is why I love working with kids. The camp I worked at was here in DC, where the summers are so freaking hot...One time for fun I strung some ropes from the rafters, told a kid to put his harness on. So he did, I grabbed him, picked him up and clipped him to the rope. He had a fun time just swinging around...casually get some water from the hose...Oh well. They loved it! Thats what I'm there for.....
When it's your own kids and you see them overflowing with confidence it's awesome. I lead from the front in everything including the fun. There's very little I won't do to make them go to bed exhausted, smiling and more than a little giggly.
Life is precious, life is short. Jam as much in as you can but make sure your own life is like a dynamic climbing rope. Be safe at all times (to the degree required but not anal), be flexible, let your kids hold on as tight as they want and stretch enough to show them that life is full of twists, turns and challenges.
What makes me an awesome dad is that I'm only dad when safety matters. Once the safety is out of the way I become the older brother and we all enjoy the fun of getting away from dad and having fun.
(This post was edited by codefrog on May 29, 2009, 9:41 PM)
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bill413
May 22, 2009, 10:00 PM
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cracklover wrote: 2 - There's a longer drill for the first climb (including checking the harness points) than there is for subsequent climbs. If they haven't taken their harness off, there's no need to re-check it each climb. Of course you need to check knots and belay devices every single time.
cracklover wrote: 3 - Lynn Hill (you may have heard of her) once got distracted in the middle of tying her knot, and when she got to the top of her climb and went to sit back, she fell to the ground (luckily she survived without very serious injuries). After that, she never allowed herself to be distracted once she started tying her knot.
cracklover wrote: In the future, if you are in the middle of tying in to the rope, or putting your harness on, or doing either of these for a family member - you should politely tell anyone who approaches you requesting your help that they must wait until you've finished until you can help them. This is a good practice in general, and should keep you from repeating your mistake with your harness.
---
Not sure about the "adjusting slack" comment in your mantra.
---
Yeah - squeezing biners to check them is critical. There are some that lock in different ways, or can get hung-up in a gate open position.
And, like others have said, if you're going to clip in (instead of tying in) use two biners. Just one can come undone. Tying in is better, and may get the kids interested in knots.
The thing about kids & harnesses are that they can slip out if they become inverted (skinny hips). That's why the chest harness or the one piece style is preferred for them. And, even on a climbing wall they can have an inverted fall (especially if they are trying for it ).
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desertwanderer81
May 25, 2009, 12:56 AM
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ford4x4 wrote: did someone just use the L word on here???
Lesbians??? where?!
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sungam
May 25, 2009, 1:07 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: ford4x4 wrote: did someone just use the L word on here??? Lesbians??? where?! 
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desertwanderer81
May 25, 2009, 1:21 AM
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sungam wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: ford4x4 wrote: did someone just use the L word on here??? Lesbians??? where?! Don't look over here, dude. This weekend has been a fucking suasege fest
Apparently! Rain on the weekends sucks, hehe.
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sungam
May 25, 2009, 1:29 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: sungam wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: ford4x4 wrote: did someone just use the L word on here??? Lesbians??? where?! Don't look over here, dude. This weekend has been a fucking suasege fest Apparently! Rain on the weekends sucks, hehe.
And rc.com, of course.
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jmeizis
May 25, 2009, 1:54 AM
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A few things. Unless you're belaying fifty kids an hour then you should tie them in with a retraced figure eight knot. They'll learn something and it only takes marginally longer than clipping them in which should be done with two lockers, opposite and opposed as state previously.
Helmets are a great idea. It sounds like you're climbing inside though where it might be a bit overkill. Don't get me wrong kids do have a tendency to weirdly slam their heads into things in ways that are hard to imagine but there is little danger of falling objects (unless they set routes during open hours and have poor risk management standards). If you're outside then helmets are certainly a good idea. They do have kids helmets and other helmets (bike, caving, other?) will do similarly well given the surroundings.
The reason for the process is more important than the process itself. I climbed with over fifteen different people this week, many who had never climbed before. I don't stick to a process because checking things isn't about the checking, it's about the things. I don't check that people are doubled back for the checking but to see that it is in fact double backed. Sorry if that is linguistically confusing. Basically you don't want to get so sucked into routine that you forget the purpose thereof. That's great that you have a checklist but maybe switch it up every once and a while to make sure you're still aware of the dangers not just blowing by them because they're on the checklist.
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currupt4130
May 25, 2009, 3:04 PM
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jmeizis wrote: The reason for the process is more important than the process itself. I climbed with over fifteen different people this week, many who had never climbed before. I don't stick to a process because checking things isn't about the checking, it's about the things. I don't check that people are doubled back for the checking but to see that it is in fact double backed. Sorry if that is linguistically confusing. Basically you don't want to get so sucked into routine that you forget the purpose thereof. That's great that you have a checklist but maybe switch it up every once and a while to make sure you're still aware of the dangers not just blowing by them because they're on the checklist.
I like the last statement here. When I'm climbing I always check my partner and they always check me. I guess being the dad you have to be both though... JM's statement makes a lot of sense though. Once you get in a routine it's easy to just do it. What I mean is if you get in a routine of just looking at the buckle and it's always doubled back, you'll eventually always just look at it and assume it's doubled back. Make sure you're actually looking for the symptoms of trouble rather than just rolling through the motions.
My partners and I just check our eights, lockers, and double backs on buckles. I look at their eight and their buckle, and they look at my locker and my buckle. If either seems suspect we say something. If not, it's onto climbing.
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bill413
May 25, 2009, 3:09 PM
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currupt4130 wrote: I like the last statement here. When I'm climbing I always check my partner and they always check me. I guess being the dad you have to be both though...
Of course, be safe!
(This post was edited by bill413 on May 25, 2009, 3:10 PM)
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seatbeltpants
May 25, 2009, 8:44 PM
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hi codefrog,
great thread - it sounds like you've got this sorted out pretty nicely, and have got some good advice from a bunch of others on here as well which is all good. one point which i was thinking about related to this...
codefrog wrote: Here's one that bit me that I wasn't expecting. I use those really cheapo key-chain carabiners to put some gear on my harness (camera, tool clip, etc...). I never use them for climbing. Oh yeah I also use them to clip the kids shoes together.
it's probably overkill in your situation - you just have to make sure the kids don't do this again - but i try to make sure that everything i carry is functional. instead of accesory carabiners to carry my shoes, i use a regular climbing biner. instead of a regular belt on my chalk bag, i use a length of 22kn tape. i've heard of guys using prussik (sp?) cord as shoe laces - you get my point!
this means that if i ever find myself in need of a sling or a biner and the only one i have is the one i use to carry my shoes then that's no problem because it's a genuine, rated item and i'm not going to find myself rapeling off a shoelace and $1 keyring. in your case this might mean that if you kids are playing with the gear in the garage they're not going to break anything.
anyway, probably orverkill and irrelevant, but it might be worth considering if the little buggers start lowering each each other off the balcony on those cheapo biners
steve
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codefrog
May 26, 2009, 12:07 AM
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seatbeltpants wrote: hi codefrog, great thread - it sounds like you've got this sorted out pretty nicely... ...i try to make sure that everything i carry is functional... ...if the little buggers start lowering each each other off the balcony on those cheapo biners steve
This is perhaps the best advice yet. You never know what you may need to use to save your life.
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TellyDSP
May 26, 2009, 1:47 AM
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codefrog wrote: You know... it's a good thing I have that really good Metolius harness that even if it's not doubled back is good for 10Kn in the buckles. Because on 3 distinct and separate events I've not been db'd. Twice while belaying and once while climbing. The harness never budged. It scared me right and good and after that I developed the anal, over-done mantra you see above.
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codefrog
May 26, 2009, 2:06 AM
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TellyDSP wrote: Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if you're a fan of the "red is dead" approach, you could always tape your buckles where they double back. Put some red electrical tape on the section of the buckle that gets covered when the strap is doubled back. If you can see the red tape, you're not doubled back.
I have been very honest with the veteran climber who's been showing me how to do things. I let him know each and every time I forgot and in doing so I've kind of lost face. I now always check for doubles and he now asks me to. The cool thing is that he checks himself first then I have to check my buckles. He never used to do that but once he discovered I wasn't doing so great he has never forgotten. It's shaming but that's what being new is about.
To answer you... my buckles have "Danger" stamped on them when they are not doubled and it still wasn't good enough.
-- Habits need to be developed over time.
-- Time needs to be spent with climbers that know my strengths and weaknesses.
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bill413
May 26, 2009, 2:27 AM
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codefrog wrote: -- Time needs to be spent with climbers that know my strengths and weaknesses.
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