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brianthew
Dec 5, 2002, 7:03 AM
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the great Walter Bonatti!!!
He's sort of Messner's fore-runner, being one of the first major "fair means" advocates. His envelope-pushing alpine-style ascents defined what was the cutting edge. In the alpine world, he set the ethical standard.
When it comes to technology, though...Chouinard, says me. Where would ice be without him?
And John Gill on sporty stuff...as many said before, he was the man.
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mikalw
Sep 24, 2003, 12:17 PM
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Hillary and Tenzing... they bagged the highest peak, and from then on it all became technical - finding a harder way of doing it or in a better style.
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teddy
Sep 24, 2003, 12:54 PM
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heh someone should attract gill's attention to this, i wonder what he'll say when he sees it.
But yes my vote goes to him aswell, the guy is amazing i mean who of us would look at boulders when every1 is climbing bigger walls and say hey thatd be fun, or be crazy enough to go hmmm i wonder if that stuff my teachers used to put on blackboards would grip my hands to rocks (well u know what i mean)
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kalcario
Sep 24, 2003, 1:01 PM
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Gill may have invented gymnastic movement on rock, but who was the first to foster the wholesale application of this style to actual climbing? Patrick Edlinger. PE was a traditional European climber in the mid 70's when he made the pilgrimage to Yosemite, repeating the Triple Direct on El Cap among others, and saw Ron Kauk bouldering in Camp 4, which he later said was his biggest influence, and the rest as they say is history...he was the first to apply the Yosemite dirtbag, live-in-your-car lifestyle, combined with an athelete's training and an artist's vision, to what we now now call sport climbing, which is undeniably the crucible most responsible for pushing the difficulty standards of free climbing. His visit to the States in the early 80's, when he was ONSIGHTING the hardest routes in the country, basically sounded the death knell for the ground-up ethic here. He is the John Gill of Europe in terms of influencing the direction of the sport there, and the vast majority of the world's best climbers are European, so...
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rrrADAM
Sep 24, 2003, 1:11 PM
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In reply to: I'm with climbjs. John Gill was, in my humble opinion, the greatest single influence on climbing. His ability to strip climbing down to the basics of it and then re-define the sport with specialized shoes, chalk and dynamic moves was paramount in the progression of modern climbing. Mick
Was ??? He still climbs... Ask him yourself, of just look at his pics bro:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/users/list.php?UserID=jgill
For anyone who hasn't done so yet, read his bio also linked at the top of his profile.
He is my choice... I like his term Free Solo Exploration (FSO).
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thegreytradster
Sep 24, 2003, 3:59 PM
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Most of the comments so far have emphasised the achivements of the greats. Granted, they have provided inspiration for all of us, but there were four or five technical events that really changed the way we do things on a fundamental level.
WW2 and the invention of Nylon rope
The PA climbing shoe and all its descendants
Salathe and the CrMo piton, (and his infuence on the next guy on the list)
Chounard and the introduction of high quality gear starting with the CrMo angle piton. He's particularly important for the popularization of clean climbing in the US. The 72 catalog was a text book on how to do it. Later he did the same thing for ice climbing. If I had to vote for one person who has had the most influence on how we do things, it'd be him.
Jardine, for caming gear.
Gill, for introducing Chalk and gymnastic concepts.
Brower's bolt on Shiprock, (although I doubt he'd be happy about how far its gone)
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nbrown
Sep 24, 2003, 4:52 PM
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John Gill
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jman
Sep 24, 2003, 5:26 PM
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How about Royal Robbins.
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unabonger
Sep 24, 2003, 10:05 PM
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Alan Watts
Todd Skinner
Christian Griffith
The question is CHANGED.
They had the answer. What they did was introduce a whole new ethic--the result is the explosion in the numbers participating in our sport.
The static UnaBonger
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grigriese
Sep 24, 2003, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: In my opinion two things have radically changed climbing in the last 20 years. 1. The global use and acceptance of the bolt in free climbing 2. The development of the panel and bolt-on hold system that is used at most climbing gyms and in climbing competitions These two developments have changed climbing for the good and for the bad. Anyone care to hazard a guess at the good and the bad? Mick
I guess Ron Kauk for number 1
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roughster
Sep 24, 2003, 10:34 PM
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Unabonger (I seem to be siding with this dude more and more..) has it right.
Alan Watts changed US climbing the most. Leaving the security of the cracks, and moving onto the blanks faces despite outside pressure from the "old guard". Saying Fuck it and bolting on rappel. All sport climbers should be raising a toast to Mr Watts!
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curt
Sep 24, 2003, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: Unabonger (I seem to be siding with this dude more and more..) has it right. Alan Watts changed US climbing the most. Leaving the security of the cracks, and moving onto the blanks faces despite outside pressure from the "old guard". Saying schtupp it and bolting on rappel. All sport climbers should be raising a toast to Mr Watts!
Watts is a great climber but he hardly had the most influence on climbing in the US. BTW, why didn't you pick Chris Jones instead?
Curt
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iamthewallress
Sep 24, 2003, 10:54 PM
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For the issue of who CHANGED the way we think about climbing and/or persue it, I can't vote for who did the most, but here are a few who I think have changed quite a bit....
To ergophobe's list, I'd add Doug Robinson to Choinard and Jardine. His article on clean climbing really touched a lot of people and brought about their change of consciousness.
Also, to Brian in SLC's Annie Pike nomiation, I'd add Bev Johnson. She not only was first to get up El Cap, but she was high profile about it, and this impacted an awful lot of women who came after her.
Lynn Hill showed us all that under certain circumstances women can climb as hard or harder than men.
Long/Kauk/Bridwell on Astroman and later Todd Skinner and Paul Piana brought about the era of the free big wall. The former has impacted many climbers, but most of us don't really think about the Salathe as a free climb yet. Maybe someday that change will come full circle.
Many people have led bolt replacement efforts over the years, but Chris MacNamera has taken it to an incredibly effective new level.
The guy who drilled the first bolt on Shiprock. (Forget the name.)
Charles Cole. (5.10) Whoever started EB and Boreal.
Long/Bridwell/Westbay for getting the speed climbing ball rolling in a big way, and Hans Florine for being its number one sysiphus.
Chris Sharma for, in my opinion, inspiring the current frenzy of bouldering popularity.
The "Vertical World" guys who started the first indoor climbing gym.
And many, many more...
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unabonger
Sep 25, 2003, 11:32 AM
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In reply to: Unabonger (I seem to be siding with this dude more and more..) has it right. Alan Watts changed US climbing the most. Leaving the security of the cracks, and moving onto the blanks faces despite outside pressure from the "old guard". Saying schtupp it and bolting on rappel. All sport climbers should be raising a toast to Mr Watts!
Yes. Of course others around the world were bolting climbs before, but there's nothing like getting the US involved in an endevour to make it fully legit.
And don't forget Christian's efforts--his "Manifesto" published in one of the mags in the 80's was an eye opener...and Paris Girls may be the most chopped route ever...
And Skinner brought attention to the bolt issue as well, then as someone pointed out, opened the world's eyes as to what could be free climbed.
The faceless UnaBonger
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rockitjeff
Oct 9, 2003, 1:58 AM
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JOHN BACHER changed the face of American climbing boldness like nobody ever.
some o' you have talked about gill and gullich upping the standard by leaps; bacher did too~~~ the x- standard. a good insight to all this is long's book.. rock jocks, hangdogs, and wall rats.. to Largo, Bacher changed the game forever
honorable mention for ROYAL ROBBINS. .. . the quintessential american climber
and nobody has mentioned CHUCK PRATT. .. .. he had a crack mastery nobody else came close to.... . heck.. he did not even BOTHER with thin cracks.. considered them... too easy.. a forgone conclusion... ... so think in historical context.. twilight zone.. .mid 60's.. an on sight ascent that was near a free-solo... in basically HIKING BOOTS... . good lord..
Final vote... equally valid to any yet mentioned on this thread.. .. LAYTON KOR. ... . for a decade... he climbed the most. ...climbed the most FA's......climbed the hardest (on the stuff longer than a ropelength; yea he left the short stuff to others.....) and most of all? Kor had the most fun. ....
oh, and another honorable mention ~ BOB KAMPS. ... for showing us all you can still crank 5.11 when you are 70.
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reno
Oct 9, 2003, 2:33 AM
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Kor, Robbins, Croft, Gill, and Messner
Not necessarily in that order.
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yosemite
Oct 9, 2003, 3:11 AM
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Many good points made here.
It's all a continuum from Whymper to Sharma or whoever is the current flavor of the week. We all stand on the shoulders of the pioneers. In terms of who ran with the standards of the day and took them to unbelievable levels, consideration should be give to Bridwell and Porter. They set new Valley standards and then used their skills in Baffin, Alaska and Patagonia and made mind blowing ascents. Their climbs were classics in terms of commitment and difficulty. I don't know if they changed the game, but they certainly expanded it to new and more challenging locations.
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jv
Dec 25, 2003, 8:21 PM
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This is one of those unanswerables. But my sentimental favorites would be those who brought roped climbing and removable protection to the U.S. I think that would be Robert Underhill, then Salathe for chro-moly pitons, Chouinard for nuts, and finally Jardine for cams. You might also throw in the rubber cooks at Fire.
But the question is who changed climbing most. And until Alan Watts, Christian Griffith and a handful of others who were entranced with higher numbers imported Euro ethics, leading everything from the ground up was the law of the land. The introduction and eventual acceptance of the 'ends justify the means' ideal in American climbing was a sea change in the entire activity, and helped usher in gyms, 'safe climbing', and the lines at the bottoms of classics.
So I think unabonger and roughster may have it right, except that the Euro dogs don't deserve any props. I'll give them a big Bronx cheer.
JV
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boltdude
Dec 25, 2003, 11:52 PM
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Frank Sacherer deserves mention for his few brilliant years of mid-1960s Valley free climbing. Perhaps the biggest influence towards freeing aid routes in impeccable style (in the US at least), and probably one of the biggest influences (along with Pratt) in bold free climbing.
On another note, Shiprock in 1939 was NOT the first use of bolts in modern (1930s to now) climbing in the US, it is a widely repeated mistake, although it was David Brower involved in all these cases (for those short on history, David Brower took the Sierra Club from a hiking club into a major political force and is one of the main creators of Wilderness protection, not to mention multiple National Parks).
Brower, along with Hervey Voge and George Rockwood, used bolts in the first ascents of the North and South summits of Condor Crags at Pinnacles National Monument (November 1933). A year later, in 1934, Brower, his brother Ralph, and Dick Leonard established the Regular Route on Tuff Dome. This route included two bolts placed to protect 5.6 face climbing. Shiprock, 5 years later, used bolts for direct aid. And, for really old stuff, George Anderson used bolts on the FA of Half Dome in 1875, and he also placed a bolt on the 1877 ascent of Mt. Starr King.
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moabbeth
Dec 26, 2003, 12:32 AM
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While I wouldn't say he influenced climbing like most of the names everyone else mentioned, Earl Wiggins should get props for his desert cracks, especially Indian Creek and his FA of Supercrack.
But Frost/Salathe/Robbins/Steck are probably more influential in the overall vertical world.
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climber49er
Dec 26, 2003, 1:04 AM
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I cant believe no one has stated the obvious!
Who has changed climbing the most? Why, ME of course!
Things just haven't been the same since I came on the scene!
Noobs....
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dc
Dec 26, 2003, 4:40 AM
Post #47 of 49
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i would have to say Tony Hawk... oh wait.. sorry.. wrong sport
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wallwombat
Dec 31, 2003, 4:02 AM
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Messner, Kukuczka, Bonatti, Brown, Whillans, Gill , Barber, Bachar, Hill, Gullich , Carrigan, Edlinger, Chouinard, Robbins, Harding, Sharma .........
But the one thing that has changed climbing the most in my lifetime is the invention of Indoor climbing gyms
They have caused a huge increase in climber numbers in a relatively short period of time. Now when I tell someone I'm a climber they automatically assume I'm (no offence meant) some yuppie gym bunny and the first question they ask is ''have you ever climbed on real rocks?''
I find this a bit disturbing. :(
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curt
Dec 31, 2003, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: Gill may have invented gymnastic movement on rock, but who was the first to foster the wholesale application of this style to actual climbing? Patrick Edlinger. PE was a traditional European climber in the mid 70's when he made the pilgrimage to Yosemite, repeating the Triple Direct on El Cap among others, and saw Ron Kauk bouldering in Camp 4, which he later said was his biggest influence, and the rest as they say is history...he was the first to apply the Yosemite dirtbag, live-in-your-car lifestyle, combined with an athelete's training and an artist's vision, to what we now now call sport climbing, which is undeniably the crucible most responsible for pushing the difficulty standards of free climbing. His visit to the States in the early 80's, when he was ONSIGHTING the hardest routes in the country, basically sounded the death knell for the ground-up ethic here. He is the John Gill of Europe in terms of influencing the direction of the sport there, and the vast majority of the world's best climbers are European, so...
Wrong again--as usual. John Stannard employed many of Gill's tactics in freeing some of the Gunks classic lines in the mid to late 1960s.
Curt
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