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dingus
Mar 22, 2008, 4:27 PM
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porcelainsunset wrote: My point is that people who are this foolish deserve to pay for their own rescue, and perhaps the fear of paying for their expense rescue would provoke more of these people to get the needed training or guiding. I personally am sick of seeing people treat the outdoors without respect. Maybe this would help change things. Who knows. I am curious to see what the impact of legislation like this would be. And for the record, Edge, your post would have been more helpful if you would have explained why this legislation is a bad idea for the climbers living in NH rather than just flaming Majid.
A few years back Burl and I were climbing Mt Shasta so as to ski back down. Early in the morning of our climb we looked down to see a lone figure hiking uphill fast. We were all 'boot- tracking' in the conga-line snow trail that snakes up the busy Avalanche Gully.
So this lone figure catches us in short order. It was a 'kid,' a teenager, probably not old enough to drive.
He was alone and wasn't really outfitted properly. He had on those modern hikers with leather and fabric, the $50 kind you get at Big 5 Sports.
He had on jeans, the kind you get out of the bargain box at Mervyns. He was wearing a flanel shirt for christsakes, like he was from Minnesota or something!
And his pack???? It was a BOOKBAG from school. He had on a baseball cap I think.
You can readily imagine the 'epic in the making' here I bet???
****************************************
The boy hiked like the wind. He smiled at us when he caught up, said something friendly as he passed us and continued on up the hill, little dust devils rising from the tiny clouds each of his feet produced as he swarmed upward.
Burl and I looked at each other and smiled too.
What, oh greats of climbing mountains, would have been your reaction to seeing a lone teenager ill-outfitted for climbing a 14k snow covered peak, in such a manner?
Burl and I continued on without comment. We were breathing too hard beneath our loads of plastic. But later, at Lake Helen, we talked about him.
"Sometimes Dingus, I think we've lost our way."
"Not this time Burl, I know exactly where we're at."
"No! Not that! I mean, all this..." His arm swept over our pile of bullshit. "This isn't anything like it used to be."
"Mmmmm hmmmm," I replied, eating a cheeseburger from a tupperware container.
"Like that kid this morning. THAT'S what climbing used to be like, when we were younger."
I nodded at him, for I had been thinking of The Kid too. It was one of those weird conjunctions, those odd Crossroad meetings where you meet some kid only to discover it was yourself from a different time.
Like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, when they meet themselves in the phone booth... 'you're gonna have a GREAT TIME!'
What was most piognant imo, about our meeting, about The Kid, I thought and it became readily apparent that so too did Burl, was this:
Neither of us had the first ill-thought about The Kid's gear, his solitude, his approach or his attitude. He was up there a-climbin, just like us. He was taking the mountain on its and his own terms. He hadn't asked permission, he didn't want directions. He was doing for himself, with the gear he had.
We afforded him the respect we felt was due any climber - until we had information otherwise, he was our peer, not some noob out for a steep hike.
We didn't think to ourselves ' OH MY GOD! That boy is going to GET KILLED! A huge rescue will ensue and he'll die anyway, I'LL HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT and CLIMBER'S EVERYWHERE WILL GET A BLACK EYE!'
Nope. We didn't think that at all. And we discussed it, sitting there at the frozen over Lake Helen. There was some sense The Kid gave off, some wiff of competence, perhaps it was the pace of his steps, or the authority with which he stapped his uncramponed feet into the snow. Maybe it was his confident smile or just the way he held his head up, proud and happy at once.
We had watched him until is tiny figure disappeared in the Red Banks a couple of thousand feet higher. He'd covered 2000 feet in the time it took us to manage 500.
Just as we topped out on the Red Banks later that morning ourselves, we again encountered The Kid. He caught us sharing a bowl at the top of the Bowl, haha. We didn't offer him any... he was a Kid!
But we did chat this time for about 60 seconds.... all his youth could afford us apparently. His feet never stopped really. He slowed to a shuffle, he had to step over our gear, and he took small hesitant steps as he sidled off away from us, chatting, but clearly not wanting to stop either.
He'd been to the top. Eaten a sandwich his mom had made him the previous evening, lol. And he was headed down, same grin, same confident bearing, same bogus gear. He wisht us luck on our forth coming descent and down he went.
We were glad to have met The Kid. He was our mirror, a quick glimpse of ourselves, a couple of decades earlier.
I have more in common with The Kid than I do most of the over-read, over-prepped, I-WILL-RESCUE-THE-WORLD types I meet in the mountains. I don't carry a first aid kit for the most part. I'm not your First Responder. I don't own a GPS and I rarely even bother with a compass. I've NEVER taken a map up Mt Shasta.... WHY??????? The top is UP THERE.
I don't get lost much either.
Climbing doesn't have to be all this complicated bullshit we tend to glom on it. Climbing is as simple as walking up a steep hill. It always require self assessment and self judgement; always.
But some of you folks don't get, never got and likely never will.... that The Kid in his jeans and cloth hikers was more a mountain climber than a lot of you will ever be.
Yes, he could have gotten in trouble. IF. IF this, IF that.
IF didn't happen. He made his judgements and climbed his mountain, parking lot to parking lot in like 10 hours or something.
The average first-timer on Shasta takes THREE DAYS car to car, and that average climber PAYS others to show them the way.
I feel The Kid had many lessons for us all, old dogs like me and young punks like yall too. All too often we insulate ourselves from this great game, with gear and knowledge, till we are slowed down, bogged down and unable to rise above our own expectations.
Here was a kid, perhaps not even knowing the risks nor the Golden Rules he was violating, KICKING ASS ON OUR MOUNTAIN.
Burl and I admired him.
The Kid knew how to live free. Do any of you?????
Fuck all that SAR bullshit, and fall factors, and First Responder hooey. None of it, NONE OF IT, will get you up a mountain. Your preparation may in fact be holding you back, your knowledge Too Terrible to allow upward progress.
Can't climb a mountain without your new parka? WTF man?????
I celebrate The Kid's right to be there, I don't condemn it. I applaud his 'you don't climb a mountain with the gear you want, you climb a mountain with the gear you have' mentality. Self-sufficiency.... is THE MOST IMPORTANT SKILL in the mountains. And self-sufficiency doesn't require a pack full of technowidges nor an enclyopedia of technoknowledge.... it requires most of all ATTITUDE.
The Kid had it. Do yall?????
Live Free or Die.... is fucking A RIGHT.
Cheers
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Mar 22, 2008, 4:29 PM)
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macherry
Mar 22, 2008, 4:36 PM
Post #27 of 51
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nicely put dingus
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majid_sabet
Mar 22, 2008, 5:39 PM
Post #28 of 51
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I been flamed and BBQ to death by posters in RC for mightily long time.The English comment ain't nothing new and if it does not said by Edge, it will come from someone else, so it is big deal.
I feel all climbers and hikers should know about these sort bills, legislations no matter in which state they live or climb. We need to closely watch and monitor such information even if it is behind EDGE's backyard.
So while you guys are adding ingredients to this BBQ, I am going to hike to Vernal Fall and then go to cookie to get my as* kicked.
Viva La BBQ Wabbit
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majid_sabet
Mar 22, 2008, 5:54 PM
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dingus wrote: el_layclimber wrote: What's with ganging up on people? Aren't mods supposed to keep this a civil forum? No mods are there to prod users into hysterical rages so they can practice their Banning Procedures. Majid is the Zeus of Trolls here.... you can have a rope through a pully dig (insert Majid drawing here)? And on one side you can have all the mods and trolls of rc.com a-pullin on that rope. On the other side is Majid, Zeus of Trolls... (force arrows indicate direction of pulls) Majid will lift them all off the floor - every time. That's not a gang-up dude, that's a gang BANG. DMT
I have to save this and add it in my profile
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moose_droppings
Mar 22, 2008, 8:06 PM
Post #30 of 51
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In reply to: Any person determined by the department to have acted negligently
This could take much more funding to defend the actions of the "department" for anyone that wants to challenge the decision of what constitutes negligence in each case. Might be a case of those that could afford a rescue being able to legally sidestep the fees by way of lawyer fees, and the poor could end up paying for a rescue that maybe wasn't needed. Seems like a wide and unclear view to defend.
Will this law take root and grow? Maybe some day one of the senators in favor of this bill will be negligent in allowing they're cat to stray off their property and receive a fee from the fire department for rescuing their cat out of a tree.
edited to add:
Majid, you wascally wabbit, you still heading out soon?
Good luck if you do, and thanks for that link the other day.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Mar 22, 2008, 8:11 PM)
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reno
Mar 24, 2008, 2:54 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: I been flamed and BBQ to death by posters in RC for mightily long time.
And you have dished our your fair share of the same.
There's an old adage: Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
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styndall
Mar 24, 2008, 4:26 PM
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reno wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I been flamed and BBQ to death by posters in RC for mightily long time. And you have dished our your fair share of the same. There's an old adage: Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
Majid takes much more shit from many more people than any else on this site, and most of it is unfounded. A lot is even racist.
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majid_sabet
Mar 24, 2008, 4:52 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: porcelainsunset wrote: And for the record, Edge, your post would have been more helpful if you would have explained why this legislation is a bad idea for the climbers living in NH rather than just flaming Majid. Agreement here. What makes you think something that happens in Arizona with climbing acess won't have an effect on you Edge? Are you then saying you don't want to hear about the rest of the states and worlds issues because you live in NH? How narrow dude. Show up with some info instead of flames. Now, what motto is "Don't tread on me" and why would that even matter to this discussion? Correct answer: and I didn't use Goggle, it doesn't matter at all. Thanks Majid
I been doing some research on racial comments that I have received in RC and guess what;
85 % of the racial anti-wabbit comments are coming from climbers living in north eastern states somewhere between Carolina and Border of Canada.
10% of wabbit BBQ flavers comes from Georgia, Texas and other southern states.
The other 5% comes from all other states West of The Rockies
Shame on you, you Eastern state climbers
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 24, 2008, 4:53 PM)
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fancyclaps
Mar 24, 2008, 9:23 PM
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Dingus, I agree and disagree with you at the same time.
Yes climbing and other outdoor recreation is being commercialized at an alarming rate. I had a hard time finding an actual pair of backpacking boots amid the "lifestyle" shoes at REI. Yes people focus entirely too much on the material aspect of being outdoors. Those people suck, don't talk to them.
However the article about New Hampshire, and the general issue here, is competence. Are you competent to go up the mountain and avoid most of the major dangers? If you aren't I think you don't have any business getting out of your car. However if you can handle a strenuous day hike with nothing but shorts, sandals, and a bottle of water, more power to you. If you know what you are doing, go for it.
The problem is many people don't know what they are doing and they get themselves injured in the process. Yes, no matter what you do things can still happen to you. Thats life, its dangerous. There is some accepting of that risk in any activity. I worked in a park this summer and the number of people I saw go hiking without even the most basic of necessities, ie proper footwear or water, was appalling. Things look differently to you whenever you might have to carry someone off the mountain later that day. The Kid knew what he was doing, or at least looked like he did to you. Most of the people I saw this summer didn't have the first clue about how to keep themselves safe. They were fat lazy tourists who expected to get airlifted off the mountain if something went wrong(and sometimes they were proved right in this assumption). And in the process put in danger everyone who would have to work on their rescue. I know that SAR crews sign up for what they do, but those guys are putting their lives on the line for complete strangers and they should be getting respect for it.
"Fuck all this SAR bullshit" might be your attitude. And yeah it might not get you up a mountain. But they will get you down a mountain if your ass is in trouble. The rampant materialism infecting our sport sucks, and I totally agree with you on that. But conflating that with going and doing shit unprepared, in terms of gear or knowledge, is too much of a leap in logic for me.
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dingus
Mar 24, 2008, 9:59 PM
Post #35 of 51
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fancyclaps wrote: Are you competent to go up the mountain and avoid most of the major dangers? If you aren't I think you don't have any business getting out of your car.
Its a wonder humanity got this far.
Please give this vid a watch:
http://es.youtube.com/...mode=user&search
I love those people! We Americans need a little Siberian in us.
Live free, or die....
DMT
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fancyclaps
Mar 24, 2008, 10:36 PM
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Oh great some good ol' fashioned internet chest beating.
Wouldn't things be wonderful if we could go back to the time when men were men and women were women and we all had a life expectancy of 25?
If only everyone free-soloed climbing would weed out the weaklings(everyone you don't like) and only the strong climbers, the true climbers, the ones with the ATTITUDE(you) would last and they could all free solo and feel super manly about their accomplishments together.
Yeah Americans could stand to toughen up a bit, but lets not get carried away.
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dingus
Mar 24, 2008, 10:59 PM
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fancyclaps wrote: Oh great some good ol' fashioned internet chest beating. Wouldn't things be wonderful if we could go back to the time when men were men and women were women and we all had a life expectancy of 25? If only everyone free-soloed climbing would weed out the weaklings(everyone you don't like) and only the strong climbers, the true climbers, the ones with the ATTITUDE(you) would last and they could all free solo and feel super manly about their accomplishments together. Yeah Americans could stand to toughen up a bit, but lets not get carried away.
The point isn't WHAT they are doing, its the fact they need no one's permission to do it, and they embrace the risk.
Cheers
DMT
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altelis
Mar 24, 2008, 11:08 PM
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Dingus can clearly speak for himself (and in a manner much more eloquent than I), but i must interject here.
I don't think the point that Dingus was trying to make was that Americans need to toughen up. I think the point is that we've lost our roots. It is far from feeling "manly"-whatever it is that might mean. And it is not about weeding out weaklings. The point is about mentality, elitism, snobbery and respect for ourselves, our fellow enthusiasts and the environment in which we play.
Us outdoorsy folk tend to be an elitist bunch. The hikers look down on those who don't get out, the backpackers feel they are better for the time on the trail, the climbers scoff at those not getting the horizontal:vertical ratio as close to zero, the alpinist feels they earn their place with suffering. Of course not everyone in these categories feels this way, it would be silly to argue otherwise. However I do think there is some part of every person who strives toward a goal to feel they are a little better than the herd for doing so.
And it is only natural, if only to increase the "worth" of our experiences, to then in some way "belittle" those without our experiences. We want to separate ourselves out. We do this with skill, knowledge and geeked out clothing and gear.
But it is all about adventure. That is what we desire; adventure in a beautiful place among friends. if you haven't seen it i would strongly suggest watching the clip on the petzl website with tommy, beth, arnaud and stephanie climbing the lotus flower tower. it hits this chord exactly.
We as a group can easily let the gear and the geeky knowledge of ropes, fall factors, etc. mediate our experience. Yes, people will get themselves into trouble. The expert climber pushing their limits and the fat old gramma. But isn't it wonderful that she had the desire and will to get herself out there, somewhere where she needed help getting back? Just that drive is great.
And here it is: I would, every time, rather my tax money go to flying a helicopter out to rescue gramma from a hike over her head than to pay for sending an ambulance out to pick her off her couch, from which she hadn't moved in the last 2 weeks.
I hope that helps explain where, perhaps, some of us are coming from, in a round-about and never quite-aimed-at-the-center sort of way.
And Dingus, that anecdote was truly to the point.
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fancyclaps
Mar 24, 2008, 11:48 PM
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Yes elitism is bad and we should be nice and encourage others to try our sport. I have met some climbers that make me proud to have them representing us. I want to be one of those some day.
But that is neither here nor there.
People still need to have some degree of competence about them whenever they go out into the wild. Just as I wouldn't go a gun range with no knowledge of firearms and pick a gun and start shooting, people shouldn't get on a trail without having basic understanding of what they are getting themselves into. I am not talking about 10 essentials here or anything, I am talking about not doing a 10 mile hike in flip-flops with a single bottle of Evian. That is just plain ignorance, and at best they will get away with a few bruises and scrapes.
And what is this hating on knowing about gear? Would you call a baseball fan a nerd if he could tell you the batting stats for the players on his favorite team? Learning about fall factors and gear is part of insuring your safety in our sport. Yeah, you can get carried away with it, but humans get carried away with most things.
Nice gear is not a prerequisite for enjoying yourself in the outdoors. I figure some people simply use being "outdoorsy" as an excuse to buy shit all the time. But this isn't always true, nicer gear can make your time in the backcountry more enjoyable. I worked the entire last summer in a shitty thirty dollar red ledge rain jacket and any time it rained it didn't do too much for me. So when I came home I got a nicer jacket. Maybe I am just a pussy for wanting to be dry. Who cares? The thing about being out there is every person decides what level of comfort they bring. Some cut the handles off toothbrushes, some are packing out cast iron. I am not such a big fan of the titanium spork crowd, but they are getting their kicks in their own way and they aren't doing anything to me.
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dingus
Mar 25, 2008, 12:01 AM
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fancyclaps wrote: People still need to have some degree of competence about them whenever they go out into the wild.
Would these kids pass your inspection?
http://gizmodo.com/...bian-kids-294523.php
DMT
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altelis
Mar 25, 2008, 12:03 AM
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again, you are getting bogged down and not picking up on the point.
i am a self espoused gear whore and nerd. no questions about that. i love the geeky aspect of climbing, thats part of what I enjoy about it.
And yes, gear can and does make our time in the outdoors more enjoyable.
And no, it wasn't really about elitism, that was a way of starting my point. If you read till the end you would have seen the part about me talking around the point not straight at it. You will need to do some thinking and interpreting to understand the underlying message.
And that isn't saying you have to or will agree. But you response tells me that you, again, missed the point. Just as you did with Dingus's post.
And why not do a 10 mile hike in flip-flops and a bottle of evian? I've walked 4 miles to the bar in flip flops, t shirt and shorts, gotten shit faced and walked back at the end of the night. If thats what you can/want to do, great.
I would suggest re-reading and re-digesting the previous posts and dig into them. Figure them out. Give them time if you have to. But your comments to my post suggests, no directly indicates, you missed the point.
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notapplicable
Mar 25, 2008, 1:49 AM
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fancyclaps wrote: Wouldn't things be wonderful if we could go back to the time when men were men and women were women and we all had a life expectancy of 25?
Sorry Dingus.
I know its only been six hours but i gotta bump ya from the signiture line, this is too good to pass up
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epicsaga
Mar 25, 2008, 1:56 AM
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and the fire dept is going to charge to put your house fire out and fire paramedics are going to charge you to save your life. cops will charge to catch the burgler in your house. A lot of search and rescue squads are unpaid volunteers. The paid ones are part of law enforcement, which is already publicly funded.
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notapplicable
Mar 25, 2008, 1:58 AM
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dingus wrote: fancyclaps wrote: People still need to have some degree of competence about them whenever they go out into the wild. Would these kids pass your inspection? http://gizmodo.com/...bian-kids-294523.php DMT
God damn...I say GOD DAMN that is awesome!
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epicsaga
Mar 25, 2008, 2:00 AM
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The people that should be charged are fools that cause avoidable car accidents, which tie up cops, fire and paramedics, as well kill people and stop traffic. Charge an idiot tax on new car sales or driver's licenses for drivers under age 25.
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epicsaga
Mar 25, 2008, 2:30 AM
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Edge can you ask Bono when the new U2 tour starts and CD comes out? I wasn't very fond of the last one.
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dingus
Mar 25, 2008, 2:39 AM
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notapplicable wrote: dingus wrote: fancyclaps wrote: People still need to have some degree of competence about them whenever they go out into the wild. Would these kids pass your inspection? http://gizmodo.com/...bian-kids-294523.php DMT God damn...I say GOD DAMN that is awesome!
I can't find the post and I looked but it was Werner Braun of Yosemite SAR fame that brought this vid to my attention. To paraphrase him,
'I bet some of you will be critical of their equipment. But these people are ALIVE.'
Werner says some downright surprising things for a SAR guy but this one was one of the best ever.
A sundress, a forked stick, some hemp rope, a rusty pully, sister in a burlap bag, CHECK. You know, manly man stuff!
Hah!
DMT
DMT
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notapplicable
Mar 25, 2008, 2:53 AM
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dingus wrote: A sundress, a forked stick, some hemp rope, a rusty pully, sister in a burlap bag, CHECK. You know, manly man stuff! Hah! DMT DMT
That "stick break" was the best.
I was grinning my ass off the whole way through that video, it would almost be worth the plain ticket to ride that bastard.
You know. I seem to recall got trolled pretty good by that bastard Braun a few months back but I guess if anybody has earned the right to bust a young climbers chops it him.
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macherry
Mar 25, 2008, 3:03 AM
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dingus wrote: notapplicable wrote: dingus wrote: fancyclaps wrote: People still need to have some degree of competence about them whenever they go out into the wild. Would these kids pass your inspection? http://gizmodo.com/...bian-kids-294523.php DMT God damn...I say GOD DAMN that is awesome! I can't find the post and I looked but it was Werner Braun of Yosemite SAR fame that brought this vid to my attention. To paraphrase him, 'I bet some of you will be critical of their equipment. But these people are ALIVE.' Werner says some downright surprising things for a SAR guy but this one was one of the best ever. A sundress, a forked stick, some hemp rope, a rusty pully, sister in a burlap bag, CHECK. You know, manly man stuff! Hah! DMT DMT
holy crap!!!
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reno
Mar 25, 2008, 4:23 AM
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epicsaga wrote: and fire paramedics are going to charge you to save your life.
They do that now. Have been for some time. So what?
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